Today, I received this email from a group calling itself the International Social Media Association. ISMA for short (not to be confused with the International Society of Management Accountants – or International Sports Management Australasia for that matter):
Hope you are having a fabulous day! My name is (…) and I work with (…) and (…) for The International Social Media Association, (ISMA).
Both (…) and (…) have expressed that you are absolutely amazing. You bring so much knowledge with such excitement to the social media world. Thank you for everything you do!
ISMA would love to invite you to be on our Certification Training Webinar on Thursday, December 10th from 2pm – 3:30pm est. as our featured guest trainer! For your benefit, you will be able to get great exposure and be known as the “Obvious Expect” within your niche!
Would you be able to accept this invitation? We would be so honored.
Here is the information if you do accept. Topic:
Social Media Objectives & ROI – Session 14 (December 10, 2009) 2-3pm est
* Setting social media objectives
* Create social media budget
* Tracking & measuring ROI
* Q&AYou will need to provide a Power Point Presentation and send it to us so we can upload it onto our server and a short bio and your picture.
The training with your power point is usually 1 hour and then it is followed with a Q & A session.
Please call me at 603 xxx-xxx or e-mail me back and we can go from there. You can promote yourself and gain more exposure for you and your business, however we ask that you refrain from pitching anything.
I am looking forward to hearing from you shortly! (…) and (…) just couldn’t say enough great things about you! Can’t wait to hear from you!
Before I share my reply – which I think will be pretty self-explanatory – let me share a few thoughts with you about where this email came from and what it is really about:
First, let’s start this discussion with a little basic background: ISMA is the brain child of Mari Smith and Mark Eldridge. Bright people, I’m sure, but not exactly the international brain trust one might expect from an organization positioning itself as a – if not the – certification body for the world of Social Media. Internationally, at that.
Now, had the team behind ISMA been composed of people like Andy Sernovitz, Jay Baer, Valeria Maltoni, Maz Nadjm, Mack Collier, Chris Brogan, Beth Harte, Jacob Morgan, Andrew Gerrard, Amber Naslund, Francois Gossieaux and Kim Brater, (or scores of others – you know who you are) I would have been inclined to sign on. But no. Mari Smith and Mark Eldridge it was. Two people who – not to belittle any of their accomplishments – don’t seem nearly enough of a thought leadership force to create an international certifying body out of thin air… and immediately charge $2,995 for their social media certification course, which seems to be the main impetus behind ISMA. (I could be wrong, but I guess we can rule out any not-for profit status for the organization.)
And there’s the real rub: Aside from lacking the slightest sliver of real legitimacy in the space, what exactly is this certification program? Where did it come from? Who developed it? Who is teaching it? And why exactly does it cost almost $3,000?
From what I can tell from the email I received today, “guest trainers” are developing at least some of the content, and then delivering it via webinar. In other words, anyone desperate enough for attention and validation to lend their name to an organization essentially based on… well… volunteered material solicited through a form email can become a trainer for this “international” certification program.
Come on, Mari. For $2,995 per certification, the least you could do is properly recruit, then pay your trainers, don’t you think? Maybe call them up yourself? Discuss the project and the organization with them? Set up discussions about content and best practices? You know… the basics? Do it right, and for the right reasons maybe? Work with real professionals? Build a board of advisors composed of social media professionals instead of what appears to be a mix of affiliate marketers, entrepreneurs and motivational speakers?
But no: Let’s build a site, start selling a product, and worry about the details later… like content. And let a staffer send them an email full of typos in which we bait them with terse little sales tricks? Come on. Really?
I am not impressed. As a matter of fact, no. Let me take that back. I am appalled.
Aliza Sherman has a pretty solid writeup on the ISMA and its “certification” training here. I highly recommend that you guys read it. I am in complete agreement with her on every point. Another post on the subject this week: Leigh Duncan-Durst’s post on not being Social Media Shark Bait.
Mari and Mark, I’m sorry if this seems harsh, but you are going about this all wrong:
1. You could have started with a real board of advisors. You know… made up of people who actually play a role in the advancement of Social Media. Need a starter list? Try this one. Or this one. Or even this one. I’m sure the people you selected are brilliant and successful and all, but what do they have to do with developing best practices and training programs dealing with Social Media? How do they bring any legitimacy to your organization? I don’t recognize a single name on that list. Not a single social media director or strategist from a major brand? No one from IBM? DELL? The Home Depot? Starbucks? Ogilvy? Best Buy?
2. You could have partnered with at least one reputable university (like Chris Penn did with the University of San Francisco) to at least create an academic framework for your certification – if not to put it on a path of accreditation at some point in the future.
3. You could have started by creating frameworks for best practices, legal considerations, etc. before jumping straight to selling a certification course. It would have taken some time, sure, and the organization might not have made any serious money for a year or so, but it would have built a foundation upon which to build a real certification program. The Social Media Business Council is already doing this. You could have at least partnered with those guys, sought sponsorship of some kind, worked out a similar type of membership organization to constitute a working advisory board, but no. You went straight for the sale.
4. You could at some point clarify specifically what makes you an international body, aside from the notion that adding “international” to the name sounds important. I don’t see a whole lot of foreigners on your board of advisors. Maybe I missed something, but who represents the EU? Asia? Africa? Latin America? Real international organizations, like the IAB for example, have representation in more than one country – and usually more than one continent. Did I miss something? Is there a Canadian resident in there somewhere?
5. Had you given social media management any thought whatsoever, you and your board would have also realized by now that social media management is too complex to limit to only one certification track. As social media evolves within the organization, four clear tracks begin to emerge: Social Media program development (strategy), Social Media program integration (ops), Social Media program management (execution), and Social Media measurement (analysis). The execution piece alone can be broken down into online reputation management, community management, business intelligence, customer support, human resources, etc., each requiring its own very specific training/certification course. I shouldn’t have to tell you this. The emerging specialization in social media roles is something that seems to have completely escaped you, which doesn’t bode well for your “certification” program or your level of practical understanding of a discipline you aim to make your business to certify people in.
And not to put too fine a point on it, but as I recall, Fast Company named Mari the “pied piper of Facebook,” NOT “the pied piper of the online world,” as her profile now states on the ISMA website. Accidental oversight? Who knows. But when you’re going to quote a major publication like Fast Company, it helps to be accurate with what they actually said about you. You wouldn’t want anyone to accuse you of being purposely deceptive now, would you.
Update: Thanks to Mike Rudy, the Fast Company blog reference in question has been found. In a post written on the Fast Company blog by Wendy Marx, Mari Smith is in fact mentioned as both the pied piper of Social Media (body) and the pied piper of Facebook (title). My apologies for this oversight. I didn’t realize that the description was written for the blog, not for the monthly publication.
So Mari, Mark, and the rest of you at the ISMA, at long last, here is my reply to your email:
Hi, (…).
I am honored by the kind words and your invitation, but I have to respectfully decline.
I want to be absolutely frank with you as to why I don’t feel comfortable with your request. (I don’t think it would be fair of me to simply decline and not tell you why.) It pains me to say this, but I don’t feel that your organization is currently moving in the right direction or sending the right message across the Social Media space.
As far as I can tell, you have not yet been endorsed by any of the professionals or organizations in this field whose opinion I trust and respect. Not in the US, and certainly not internationally. Providing Social Media training to companies is one thing. Providing a certification program is another. Your “international” organization seems to be based on absolutely nothing of substance, and that worries me a great deal.
With all due respect to Mari, Mark and the rest of your team, I cannot lend my name to your organization – even as a guest presenter – until I feel that you are a legitimate body, at the very least backed by a board of advisors made up of leaders in the field. To do so could be seen as an endorsement of your certification program or status as a governing body of some sort, and I don’t feel comfortable with that at this time.
I am sorry if this letter seems harsh, especially in response to an invitation, but I felt that being honest with you guys was important.
Best regards,
Olivier Blanchard
In other words, thanks, but no thanks.
So for you, my readers, here’s some advice I hope you will share with anyone desperate enough to actually consider spending $3,000 on a webinar series:
1. You don’t need to be certified in Social Media. If one day, universities or accredited bodies start issuing social media degrees or certifications and companies want to favor them, then fine. Look into one of them. But until that day comes, just do the work and let that speak for itself. And if you do need help and training, shop around. There are programs out there that don’t cost quite that much, and I can guarantee that for $3,000, you can get a custom package developed specifically for your needs. More importantly, trust me when I say this: No piece of paper is going to validate you as a social media professional. Don’t you dare waste almost $3,000 on a series of webinars and a piece of paper. Even if:
This certificate gives you the privilege of displaying the official “Certified Specialist” ISMA logo on your website and other marketing materials.
The International Social Media Association offers a full 30-Day Money Back Guarantee on it’s Social Media Certification Program.
I swear I am not making this up. Even the typos are real. (I wonder if I call right now, they’ll send me two for the price of one.)
2. If you insist on spending $3,000 on training, fine. I will fly to wherever you live, and we’ll conduct the training there for 2 whole days, face to face, with a skype connection to my network of SMEs from around the world who will answer any and all of your questions. If you’re going to spend $3K, we’ll teach you everything you need to know, and we’ll do it right.
But seriously. Don’t.
3. If you are really looking for real training programs that won’t shred your finances, here is a short list of resources for 2010 that you should consider before dishing out $2,995:
And last but not least, Red Chair (launching soon) – In the meantime, go here
Hell, if you can’t wait until 2010 and plan on being in Chicago on December 16th, you can even register for Word Of Mouth Supergenius, which will be a valuable milestone along your social media educational path. Check out the agenda: Not bad. I’ll even save you some money: When you register, enter this discount code: olivierismyhero (Disclosure: I am speaking at Supergenius, which is how I know it’s going to be a pretty solid event.)
Okay, rant over. Think before you spend, do your homework before joining an organization or registering for anything, and you’ll probably be all right. Have a great Friday, everyone.
PS: If you really need a certificate to frame on your wall, here you go. Reading this blog post has qualified you to be a genuine Social Media Guru, as well it should. We’ll hold a graduation ceremony for everybody on Twitter later today during which I will wave my magic wand and turn you all into vizir-level social media experts. We’ll all wear funny hats and exchange secret social media handshakes.
Cheers.
Update: Mari Smith called me Friday afternoon to discuss this post. I have to give her credit for having reached out to me personally and for having been both professional and cordial during that telephone exchange.
That said, Mari and I agreed to disagree on pretty much everything about the way she and her team went about building and packaging her “organization” and the certification program it offers.
Final Update: ISMA disbanded several months after this post was first published. For further details, click here.
Brand Building and Online Marketing Blog 
I forget how long ago it was that we learned about this organization and talked about them privately, but I didn’t know they’d end up calling on you to help them, probably because of your social media ROI visibility now, being on Mashable and all.
This is a post that could have been written then, but I’m glad you waited until they contacted you now. The references you make in here are as valuable as the rant – the “proof in the pudding” that no one, but NO ONE should pay for this course and go about becoming a social media consultant in this way.
I have been thinking about social media consulting this past week, and how I don’t think that is a very great goal to strive for. The best consultants are those that wind up doing it because they achieve lots of experience doing things for themselves or clients… they end up providing services that they are then good at – as opposed to taking a course and getting a business card and attempting to charge people $100 an hour the minute they get a free blog online. I have been doing professional services since the mid-90’s – I taught myself print design (I had a few graphics courses that helped.) I taught myself web design, I taught myself user experience and human factors tactics, and took a training in that, that helped. I did conferences and interacted with peers and things along the way, but I had an impetus to teach myself these things because I USED all these skills to promote my own businesses and pet projects. I taught myself to do these things, and mastered them before I got close to a client that I charged… that just would not have been right – it’s not the way I do things. And by the time I take on clients for a service, I am experienced, and it is a natural extension of what I can offer.
These days, I am starting to get social media consulting questions. There are things I can do myself, and things I would bring others in to do, because I am not experienced in “all things social.” When I offer services on my site, that does not necessarily mean I myself will do them – I am lucky to have a network of talented experts that could help based on the client’s need. We’re all getting experienced at the same time, so for someone to launch off and try to create an International body and stake a claim in the ground that way is really foolish. How is that even legal anyway??? Who governs “international certifications?”
It’s a shame Mari Smith has to be called out here that way, but this was not a good direction for her to take and I agree with you, people should be warned and more than that, this venture should be shut down. Thanks for having the gumption to write what I could have, when I found out about this org, but didn’t.
This is just one reason why you rock, Olivier. 🙂
Thanks for consistently writing comments that actually rival my posts in terms of word count. 😀
Yeah, initially, I was going to leave it at the email response… But then, I realized that I couldn’t just let it slide. I felt that it was important to discuss the dos and donts of this sort of thing, much like we have discussed the nonsense around ROI and ROE and social media “experts” as a whole over the last year or so.
Yesterday, a colleague mentioned to me that the Social Media “consulting” space was a lot like the Wild West right now. Outlaws, swindlers, carpetbaggers… You can’t really tell who’s who. For people like us, who are part of the community, who work to advance the space, it’s pretty obvious who the real players are and who the posers are. I can spot an opportunist from a mile away. But for a CEO just now discovering this little world, it’s easy to fall for bogus programs packaged by made-up organizations. How do you tell a Brian Solis from a Mari Smith? How do you tell a Maz Nadjm from a Mark Eldridge? If you’ve never read their blogs, if you’ve never heard them speak, if you’ve never met them in person or discussed the finer points of online reputation management or community management or customer engagement, how can you tell who actually knows how to do this stuff vs. who’s out to sell you a webinar?
I can’t assume that everyone’s bullshit meter is as well-tuned as mine. If we don’t call out things like this when we run into them, we become complicit through our silence.
And at the very least, it gets a discussion going: Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe Mari and Mark and their friends can come here and defend their position. Know what I mean? That type of exchange could be pretty productive. I’m 100% open to that.
Thanks for the comment. 🙂
Hey K + O
What I’m realising is how many people who ‘talk’ about SM are actually not ‘doing’ SM.
Even standing up yesterday at Like Minds Immersive, and having great content that Olivier and I had worked on together, I felt very under qualified. What made me know that was I qualified was that I wasn’t speaking on behalf of myself – it was the combined knowledge of a group of us, curated over time, from a range of experience.
This is what should constitute any group of people providing SM consultancy AND integration. And yes – it should be a group of people, with depth and breadth of experience. That’s why Red Chair is so cool. That’s why Like Minds sold over 20% of the tickets for Feb today – it’s about people-to-people.
The more I think about people-to-people, the more I realise that these one/two man bands and self-proclaimed experts don’t mean and don’t do jack.
Scott, I can definitely empathize with you regarding feeling that way as you spoke. This is partly why I am not in a giant rush to take advantage of the many speaking offers that have come my way… maybe I know internally that though I have some strong opinions and viewpoints and valuable things to add to the conversation, I’m still learning.
Plus, this is flat out a hard industry right now, because of the “land-grabbing” going on. I told Olivier the other day it reminds me of a cross between The Amazing Race & Survivor… replete with the good, the bad and the extremely ugly behavior and backstabbing that takes place on those shows. I love the technology being created, and there are neat thoughts being shared, but the industry itself is rife with complications and problems.
We have to be careful not to fall victim to the Wild West mentality, while being objective about what’s being shared, while having integrity and giving credit where it’s due, while earning a living, while meeting client requests and demands… it’s not always easy, and when people make mistakes it’s not necessarily because they’re bad people, but maybe they have taken a bad approach as Olivier just pointed out on Twitter after speaking to Mari on the phone.
This is exactly why I refuse to call myself anything containing the words “social media.” At all. You make totally excellent points, and I think your response highlights and clarifies what thousands of experts, gurus, and (my favorite) mavens need to understand about credibility.
Good stuff!
Werd.
Olivier, I asked Mari Smith what types of skills she would be teaching for her certification course. I asked her if she would be teaching anything like audio production for podcasting, maybe creative or business writing for content creation. Her answer to me was that not everyone wanted to do those things and that they would outsource for those services! What the heck man?
What is she teaching them how to send a tweet? Mari, FYI Twitter is NOT social media. Maybe she’s teaching them how to set up their own Facebook Fan Page that no one will ever give a crap about.
I am sorry if I seem harsh here, but for the last year I have been working on an ebook that covers the many skills needed to really be masterful in the digital space. I would have been cool if they beat me to the punch, but instead they pedal crap to poor unsuspecting individuals who don’t know any better.
I wish I could find the discussion I had with her and one of her minions on twitter because you’d be further appalled. I am not a negative person so I will stop writing, but this crap has to be stopped!
-Keith
My thoughts precisely. I first ran into that crowd a few months ago, during an online “summit” they put on. #SMSS09 or something. Sadly, they’d actually gotten some real speakers to participate – people like Gary V. That’s when I realized the danger of not speaking out.
The site itself read like an infomercial script: “Act now!” “The social media gold rush is going to be over before you know it!” Garbage of that sort. You couldn’t make something look any sleazier if you tried to make a joke of it.
There are essentially three types of responses to this type of outfit:
1. Do nothing, say nothing, just let them be.
2. Call them out.
3. Join them.
In my opinion, 1 and 3 both serve to legitimize them. Like you, I much prefer to spend my time helping people than kicking hornets’ nests, but there are limits to the kind of BS I can stomach in silence. Know what I mean?
I think you accomplished two things with this post. One, you demonstrated a key social media principle of transparency. Two, you demonstrated the power of networks vs. direct.
People can spew their bullshit, but now they are going to be held accountable for it publicly. If you try and pull wool over our eyes, not only are we going to call you on it, but we are going to share this important information with our networks.
If you aren’t honest or at least full of value, you are going to get called out.
Indeed. There’s no place to hide anymore.
Another great resource for folks is IMU – Inbound Marketing University. 10+ hrs of webinars with great speakers like Chris Brogan, Rand Fishkin and the like.
And the price… free.
http://inboundmarketing.com/university
(and yes, there is a test if you really need a certificate for your wall)
I haven’t tried it yet, but yep, I’ve heard good things. Thanks for the info, Geordie.
yes this is really a very good thing. A friend of mine had done it and he has given me a very good review of it. I will try to attend it soon.
Olivier,
I love your take on this. I am an ametuer when it comes to the social media world. I read the newsletters and RSS feeds of most the individuals you named. I have a blog and I try to service my niche. But as you well know the game is not easy. Though, I hopefully would never fall prey to something like this Certification, I am always hungry for new ways improve my blog.
I feel like spending that much money on course as watered down as this sounds would put a bad taste in future social media-ers mouths.
Thank you,
Ryan
That’s exactly my fear as well.
Keep plugging away, Ryan. You’ll get it all sorted out. 🙂
So funny and well said!
Thanks for the comment, Adrian.
Olivier, I wrote about this same topic back in January 2009 when things like Axel Schultze’s Social Media Academy came onto the scene.
http://www.theharteofmarketing.com/2009/01/social-media-certification-for-the-low-low-price-of%E2%80%A6.html
What’s kind of odd to me is that my post is the number one Google page when searching “Social Media Certification.” Why haven’t others questioned this long before now?
I don’t slight Mari for trying to make money in this space. But what worries me is that companies could potentially pass people up like, um, me, Valeria, Leigh, you, etc. because we are not “certified.” As well as hire people who are certified in “social media” but don’t have the first clue about marketing, PR, branding, etc. Scary, right?
And thanks for including MarketingProfs as a go to source! It’s appreciated. 🙂
Beth Harte
Community Manager, MarketingProfs
@bethharte
“What worries me is that companies could potentially pass people up like, um, me, Valeria, Leigh, you, etc. because we are not “certified.” As well as hire people who are certified in “social media” but don’t have the first clue about marketing, PR, branding, etc. Scary, right?”
Exactly. That’s a big part of it. Another one is what Ryan just brought up: That people/execs who fall for this will end up with a very bad taste in their mouths. Perhaps even reject Social Media altogether. That is extremely dangerous.
I also don’t slight Mari for trying to make money in this space. There are plenty of opportunities to go around and frankly, there aren’t enough of us to manage them all. 2010 is going to be a little crazy. But there is a right way to do this, and a very wrong way to do this. It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out which is which, as you well know. 😉
Thanks for the comment, Beth. I’m off to read your post now. Cheers.
I’m a little late to this discussion though had heard about it offline (do you believe people still actually talk to each other sometimes).
I just had to respond to this:
“What worries me is that companies could potentially pass people up like, um, me, Valeria, Leigh, you, etc. because we are not “certified.” [note: I (this poster) would not be a part of this group. I use SM for my own needs but do not go down the expert path]
Believe me, let a company hire someone with a $3000 phony certificate and no real experience over the opposite and it’ll work itself out. Whatever the opposite of “cream rises to the top” will undoubtedly come true and while those people may always find work, they wont’ last anywhere too long.
Beth (and Olivier), I’m sure you don’t need a stranger to tell you this, but if you provide a valuable service and have unique skills/personality – you’ll be just fine while all the shill-monkeys will spend their days trying to fool the world into respecting them.
And kudos for calling out the insanity in the first place.
Thanks. Well… yeah. But once burned, twice shy: 1. Company hires a social media “consultant” because of these “credentials.” 2. Company assigns resources (budget) to this consultant’s fees. 3. Company takes 6-12 months to realize that their investment didn’t pay off. 4. Consultant finally gets fired. 5. Company gives up on Social Media. Result: Wasted resources, wasted opportunity, company will be reluctant to trust one of us again.
6. Consultant pulls this trick on a few companies, adds them to his/her resume, and looks legitimate to the next company that doesn’t know any better.
It doesn’t keep me awake at night or anything, but that scenario bothers me. A lot. I’ve seen it happen with other industries already.
Cheers. 🙂
Olivier, I responded immediately to Gregg’s comment before seeing your response. Can’t believe we both said just about the same thing! OK, now I’m sounding like an Olivier acolyte. It was coincidence, really!
Looks like that mind control trick I used on all of you last Friday is working like a charm. 😉
Wow, what a post! $3,000 worth of conversation indeed. In reality, probably a lot more. Oliver, I’ve followed your tweets for a long time now and have a lot of respect for your point of view. This is your first post I’ve actually read — I’d heard they were long — and I am once again impressed by what you bring to the table and the conversation you started and have continued contributing to (slept much in the past week? :))
In addition, I have a ton of respect for so many of the people you’ve mentioned (e.g. Jacob Morgan) and those who have commented here (e.g. Beth Harte, Kristi Colvin, and many more).
That said, don’t take this the wrong way, but I think you should have taught the ISMA class. Here’s why:
I agree with the majority view expressed about ISMA in this post. Misleading accreditation premise. Perhaps misguided. And Mari and Mark are not the social media specialists I’d pick to teach such a certification course. But then, I am a social media purist at heart as well. The problem is, 99% of PR professionals aren’t.
The majority of PR and Marketing pros have never heard of Chris Brogan, Mack Collier or you or me. I am reminded of this daily when I mention the people I see as thought leaders in our industry (the names I’ve mentioned above and many of those who have commented here) and my peers provide a blank stare or shake their head because they’ve never heard of those people before.
I feel like sometimes we get caught in our own little world because so many of us are involved in the same/similar conversations and communities. But in reality, most communicators and marketers are still very new to social media and could easily fall victim to the 6-step scenario you mentioned above. They don’t know Mari or Mark from you and me. Unless they meet us all and have a chance to compare the advice we bring to the table and how it pertains to their individual situation, at their specific job, with their specific boss, in their specific life.
That’s why I think you should have taught the class. Because you could have changed the perspectives of some PR pros who will no doubt take what they learn from the ISMA accreditation webinars to heart. And they may glean some value from the ISMA process, but there’s no doubt in my mind after reading this post and the comments that followed it, that they would have benefited significantly from hearing your POV.
You provided a lot of the value you could have shared via the IMSA course here viathis post. You’ve just provided it to a different, and somewhat more receptive, audience. The folks who sign up for ISMA don’t know what or who they don’t know…unless we help show them.
Continued respect and regards. Your newest Brand Builder reader,
Justin Goldsborough
@JGoldsborough
Fleishman-Hillard KC
Justin, Olivier has developed a full-day training course (to be taught as workshops in various major cities in 2010) that will be of far more benefit to managers, execs, marketers, PR pros and ad agency staff than a one-hour webinar could possibly ever be. Lisa Qualls & I are planning to bring it to Kansas City, sometime in late spring/early summer most likely, for exactly the reasons you mention him doing the IMSA course – it will benefit people who need to know this stuff, so we want to give KC folks the chance to dig in with him for a day and really get their hands dirty. I hope you’ll be able to join us. I’d link you to the site about it, but it’s not quite live. You can follow http://twitter.com/redchairgroup if you want to be notified of the site launch and course information.
How cool is that, Kris. You can count me in! Furthermore, I will be happy to share details on the Red Chair training course with my contacts at IABC, PRSA, Social Media Club (though I’m sure Lisa has that covered) and more. Please let me know if there’s anything else I can do to help with event setup and organization. Would love to chip in.
Will be great to meet you and Oliver IRL and I’m sure we’ll all learn something from each other, which is definitely what this is all about.
Btw, after reading your comments above, I won’t call you an expert :), but you are definitely a social media thought leader in my book.
Best,
Justin
Justin, thanks for that well thought-out comment, and for the compliment. 🙂
Look, I do want to teach this stuff, and I agree that I am one of the people who can (and should) teach some of it. Not just the R.O.I. thing people know me for, but online reputation management, enterprise-wide planning and integration, etc. So I’m pretty psyched by your suggestion.
But… I can’t be a part of THIS. Not this outfit, and not under these circumstances.
1. Even though my piece of the program would be developed and delivered professionally, I have no guarantee that ANY of the rest of the program would be developed in the same way. I don’t want to jeopardize my reputation by lending credibility to a program and organization I don’t feel has the public’s best interest in mind. There are more appropriate vehicles through which to share my knowledge. 😉
2. I couldn’t live with myself knowing that I played a part in extracting $3,000 from even one person for a training program so poorly threaded together, let alone a certification. (Yes, even if my session were the cat’s meow.)
3. What I would have time to cover about R.O.I. in a 1 hour webinar is already available on http://smroi.net, this blog and slideshare. For free.
4. I am not a certified instructor, coach, social media professor or expert. None of my certifications even remotely touch social media in any way. I don’t see how I am qualified to be part of a certification program. For me to be attached to a certification program while not being, myself, certified makes me uncomfortable. How would I ever explain that my graduates are certified while I am not? Do I need to fork out $3K as well? Put myself through my own webinar? Let Mari teach ME how to be a social media specialist?
Up until now, I published material on the blog, answered questions on Twitter, spoke at conferences and industry events I found serious enough about content to lend my name to, and trained individual clients and organizations whose executives reached out to me. The plan for 2010 is to keep doing that, but also reach more people and organizations who need help:
1. Look for me in a few webinar series (some free, some not). They will be trainings and Q&A, NOT certifications.
2. I am in the final stages of developing a series of executive and management level trainings called Red Chair. They will be 1 day AMA-style workshops offered in major cities (US and Worldwide). I am partnering with a number of other industry professionals and organizations with experience in Social Media management to develop (and continuously improve) the content. Look for those in 2010.
We’re going to do this right.
Cheers.
Thanks for the comment, Oliver. Sounds like you may be coming to KC next summer, according to Kris’ comment. Very much look forward to meeting you and chatting more about this and other topics (if you still have any energy left to discuss this topic by then, LOL).
I’m with you on point 2 above — the money issue. That part by far is what bothers me most about IMSA’s approach. And I think you’ve taken great strides through this conversation and your planning for Red Chair to offer social media training to different groups of people in a variety of different ways.
I would just offer that I see every chance you, Kris, I, any of the folks who posted here, have to reach another group and have conversations like the one taking place on this blog is an opportunity I hate to see passed up.
I always ask clients to do the “self test.” If you had no idea about social media and just knew your boss said to get some training on it, where would you go first? Or if a person is interested in learning about social media but hasn’t spent any time researching thought leaders, who would they turn to?
I’d like to think they’d put the time in and do the research. But we all know the reality is people are strapped for time and they may not always make the right choice. Every touchpoint we can create with these folks improves the chances that fewer people will go after a social media certificate and more will seek out conversations like this one.
That said, looking forward to Red Chair and future blog posts.
Best,
Justin
Gregg – You said…
“Believe me, let a company hire someone with a $3000 phony certificate and no real experience over the opposite and it’ll work itself out. Whatever the opposite of “cream rises to the top” will undoubtedly come true and while those people may always find work, they wont’ last anywhere too long.”
I beg to differ with this. Having been offering “newfangled” services since the early 90s (internet marketing, web site dev & hosting, online content dev, online advertising/sponsorship, social media marketing, etc.), I know for a fact that when the “shill-monkeys” come out, they burn people, organizations and companies who will be hard-pressed to hire another person offering the same services but ostensibly with a better reputation. Once burned, twice shy, isn’t that the saying?
Even if they DO trust someone else, they may have depleted their budget with the “shill-monkey,” lost credibility w/in their organization, and you’re picking up the pieces of someone else’s mess, if you can even afford to do that.
I had one client who was ripped off to the tune of $40,000 for a relatively basic web site. When a trusted friend finally brought me in to help, he could only spare $2500 total to fix the situation. His board wouldn’t release any more funds because of the mess that had been made. What happened to him was criminal, and he is still trying to get restitution.
When the “shill-monkeys” get to innocent and naive clients first, everyone suffers. Except the shill-monkeys who laugh their way to the bank.
Anyone who goes for the quick hit of cash today at the expense of quality services and ethics paves a rocky and perilous road for the rest of us with road kill in our wake.
Olivier –
Thanks for calling them out. I believe you have been fair minded about this and have echoed many of the sentiments others have had in the past months.
I copied @ISMAConnects them on your post and asked them to respond. The question is — if they are so socialy minded — why aren’t they responding actively to the concerns being presented — not just here but on Aliza’s site, on mine – in Business Week… etc.? The silence is deafening, so far, and that says a LOT.
To be perfectly truthful, I think many of us are reticent to stand up and “call out” the sharks or snake-oil salesmen — because we don’t want to seem arrogant or overly self-promotional. On the flip side, many of us are getting darned tired of the showmanship and antics and are ready to stand up and call people on the carpet.
So the next time I see you guys at a conference, perhaps we can conduct a Social Media Smudging (or Exorcism) and purge ourselves of the bad energy these folks have created (KIDDING).
Actually, I think your post goes far toward doing that already… So, thanks!
I think that the ultimate arrogance is to create an international association out of thin air, without collaborating with the community that does real work in that space, and then use it as a platform from which to sell webinars. That’s pretty arrogant to me.
Personally, I don’t have a problem with Mari or Mark or anyone putting on a $3K social media training program. But packaging it as a certification? And attaching it to a bogus “International” association? That’s where I draw the line.
I look forward to that group therapy session. 😉
Olivier,
I am not sure if you will choose to post this response. It is not my desire, the desire of Mari Smith, or anyone else at ISMA to get into a prolonged or heated debate with you. I can handle the slander and blows you direct at me personally, but as ISMA has been founded by some extremely knowledgeable, experienced and talented individuals, whose commitment and hard work are both worthy and honorable, you and your readers should be made aware of the following:
ISMA is a MEMBERSHIP organization, and that membership is free.
There are paid levels of membership and this is not an atypical or inappropriate business model. ISMA members at all levels benefit from: a free weekly teleseminar that is subject matter driven, not a sales pitch for anything; a free weekly newsletter; free access to group forum discussions; a free monthly Q&A Forum teleseminar led by a panel of experts (again not a pitch for any other product); free access to the community blog; and other special programs that are offered periodically. Here is a list of ISMA’s next two scheduled events. Hyperlinks to learn more about these events are included, should you choose to print this at all.
FREE Teleseminar – Content is King! How to Create It, Use It, and Share It So You Can Reign Supreme
12/8/2009
FREE Teleseminar – Strategies and Best Practices for Using LinkedIn To Grow Your Business
12/15/2009
Yes, ISMA offers certification programs and it is not unusual for people to misunderstand the certification process. For decades, governmental agencies, boards, guilds, and associations have been providing certification in order to establish baselines of performance in many professions. Some are designated as licenses while others are designated as certifications.
Your hairdresser, your surgeon, even the long haul truck driver who delivers the wood to the lumberyard either has by requirement or by choice, obtained one or more industry credentials. And before you say we are confusing licensing and certifications, consider that a hairdresser is likely to be licensed by a State Board. But he or she is also going to be quick to tell you that he is a, “Certified XYZ Hair Colorist” or a similar credential. Why? Because this communicates to you a baseline level of accomplishment, creates consistency within niches or segments of an industry, and gives the consumer a measurable point of reference.
When we had another speaker scheduled to do the call and had to reschedule to our next session asked to be scheduled to do our next session, you were highly recommended to us. I genuinely apologize that after you did not return our phone call to talk with you about being part of the ISMA program, we then sent you an email that went out without the proper editing for grammar, style, and punctuation. It was not good business protocol on our part and thanks to your public berating, our administrative procedures just got a lot tougher.
Had we spoken by phone first, perhaps you would have asked me about many of the points on which you attacked us and you wouldn’t have written so many things about ISMA and its programs that are inaccurate and unfounded. Why you also chose to then go on and malign the people behind ISMA in personal attacks on their credentials and credibility (matters you have little genuine knowledge of), I don’t understand, other than that you believe we failed to include certain individuals whom you think we should have chosen to help build the association. Ironically, several of the names you identified as sources with whom we should have worked, have provided us some advice and appreciated guidance.
But you didn’t bother to find out the truth; instead you launched into a wildly aggressive and libelous attack, warned your readers to stay away from ISMA and summed it all up by providing them a list of resources you think will be offering something better at some undetermined time in the future.
To the best of our knowledge no other social media certification program works with its students though both interactive virtual training combined with in-person classroom training, not only teaching them the information they need, but most importantly, providing hands-on help setting up their blogs, creating content, and establishing their business.
While no one association or organization is right for all people, ISMA already has hundreds of members who will tell you it is right for them.
Mark Eldridge
Executive Director
http://www.ismaconnects.org
Of course I will choose to publish your comment, Mark. Why wouldn’t I? As a blog, this is an open forum. This community has nothing to hide.
First, let me be VERY clear about one thing: No blows are directed at you personally. Also, my post was neither libelous nor slanderous towards you, Mari, the ISMA board or your organization as a whole. Before we go any further with this discussion, let’s get that straight.
Second: Whether your organization offers free membership or premium membership isn’t an issue. Nobody has a problem with your membership fees or structure. You can charge whatever you want for membership or services or whatever. That is absolutely not a point of contention.
What IS a point of contention is that you have created an organization specifically designed to appear to be an accredited international governing body when it in fact is not.
Had you decided to create company XYZ and offered training programs for $2,995, no one would take issue with that. It is the fact that you are packaging your company as an international certifying body and your training as an accredited certification program that has everyone curling their noses up at you, myself included.
Do you really think I am the only one who has a problem with this, Mark?
Third: Your organization is not a State Board. Or a national board. Or an international board. I can’t believe you even brought that up as an argument.
ISMA is not recognized by anyone.
ISMA is not accredited through anyone.
ISMA’s “certification” program does not test anyone on their theoretical and practical knowledge.
All that is required to obtain the “certification” is the payment of a fee. What “baseline of accomplishment” does your certification illustrate, Mark? Listening to a series of webinars? I can do that for free all day long.
Fourth: I appreciate the fact that you look to me as a subject matter expert of sorts. I really do. And I respect that you reached out to me.
But with all due respect, you should have reached out to me (and to the rest of the community) months ago, when you were thinking about building something legitimate, not after deciding to sell a “program” that looks about as filled out as Swiss cheese.
As for the email’s bizarre wording, trust me on this, it’s the least of your marketing problems.
Wait… am I to understand from your comment that you only reached out to me after one of your “so-called” experts left you hanging? I was your last minute backup? Are you serious?
Fifth: Again, read the post carefully. None of what I said maligned anyone. Here it is again:
“ISMA is the brain child of Mari Smith and Mark Eldridge. Bright people, I’m sure, but not exactly the international brain trust one might expect from an organization positioning itself as a – if not the – certification body for the world of Social Media. Internationally, at that.
Now, had the team behind ISMA been composed of people like Andy Sernovitz, (…) Kim Brater, (or scores of others – you know who you are) I would have been inclined to sign on. But no. Mari Smith and Mark Eldridge it was. Two people who – not to belittle any of their accomplishments – don’t seem nearly enough of a thought leadership force to create an international certifying body out of thin air… and immediately charge $2,995 for their social media certification course.”
Not exactly libelous or wildly aggressive, is it? But wait, there’s more:
“I’m sure the people you selected are brilliant and successful and all, but what do they have to do with developing best practices and training programs dealing with Social Media? How to they bring any legitimacy to your organization? I don’t recognize a single name on that list. Not a single social media director or strategist from a major brand? No one from IBM? DELL? The Home Depot? Starbucks? Ogilvy? Best Buy?”
How exactly did I malign anyone? These are fair questions. Feel free to respond at your leisure, by the way. There are real questions posed in this post, Mark. Instead of accusing me of libel, why don’t you answer them?
I completely respect your right to respond to this blog post and I understand that your feelings are hurt, but don’t put words in my mouth. I was careful not to slander anyone. Shame on you for accusing me of doing something I in fact didn’t do. It’s a pretty lame tactic, really. Disappointing. I hoped you to be able to make solid arguments to defend your position without resorting to spewing senseless bullshit. So much for that.
Finally, you’ll be surprised to hear that I think that what you’re doing is needed: Social Media professionals DO need an oversight body that will establish best practices, code of ethics, trainings, networking events, forums, etc. And there eventually will be such an organization. But guess what: You aren’t it. The way you went about this is all wrong. My post is pretty clear on where, why and how.
That said, I wish you, your organization and your hundreds of members the best of luck. I really do. I just can’t support or condone your tactics.
Hi Olivier,
Nice post (again) and well done in ‘outing’ the ISMA. It definitely needed saying.
If it is any kind of small consolation, be grateful that the snakeoil salesmen haven’t and probably won’t get to shaft too many people before they too get outed.
There are always snakes in the grass and some have done some serious damage. Last year I had the hideous situation where I had to resign from a company I had cofounded and run successfully for 6 years after the new owners proceeded to load it with debt and take their own business insolvent. They missed payroll consistently to a staff of around 40 and misled so many people it’s truly embarrassing (not to mention illegal).
Keep up the good work and with any luck, the ‘gurus’ won’t cause too many ripples!
cheers
Ed
After speaking with Mari, it occurred to me that the problem may be one of positioning.
1. Her intended market isn’t executives or businesses. It’s would-be consultants. It sounds like she is trying to help create a basic program for people looking to create their own Social Media consultancies. (For what it’s worth.)
2. If Mari had created the training under a different brand – not that of an “international” certifying body, it wouldn’t be as big a deal. (At least not for me.) If you want to create a training program, go for it. Charge $10,000 for your webinars if that floats your boat. It’s the fact that this is being sold as a true certification that makes it all seem… icky.
I’m really trying to give her the benefit of the doubt here.
Chris Bailey (@chris_bailey) shared a great article with me on certification and the in-depth things an organization needs to do in order to be able to offer a certification program. He pointed out the keys are credibility and standards:
http://www.asaecenter.org/PublicationsResources/ANowDetail.cfm?ItemNumber=45510
I agree 1000%:
“If Mari had created the training under a different brand – not that of an “international” certifying body, it wouldn’t be as big a deal. (At least not for me.) If you want to create a training program, go for it. Charge $10,000 for your webinars if that floats your boat. It’s the fact that this is being sold as a true certification that makes it all seem… icky.”
It is the CLAIM that this is an international certification that I think poses not just branding, but legal problems. I would like to see the name of her organization changed to represent her mission without staking ownership as an entity who is entitled to certify someone on anything.
I can say I’m a doctor or lawyer, but I am not. It doesn’t matter if I go into Photoshop and design a certificate and read course material.
Seems like beating around the bush to me.
I’ve already moved on. I stated my opinion and that’s pretty much that. 😉
Oliver – thank you for referencing my post in your post And we’re in total agreement, eh? Where have you been all my life!
I’m also appreciative to Leigh for bringing this to the attention of more powerful, influential voices. Hey, you even got a phone call! 😉
An interesting bit of feedback I received about my blog post: that it was sour grapes or jealousy on my part that someone else thought of doing this first. I wouldn’t want to start amother organization, believe me (but would love to be an advisor if a good one gets started). Having started an international organization back in the ’90s (Webgrrls International), I know how fraught with challenges the endeavor can be.
All I want – no, EXPECT – is that those representing me or asking me to represent them in social media follow some of the basic tenets of social media, good business, common sense and…oh, say, high standards and ethics.
This is a brave new world and wonderful that many of us have the courage to stand up and speak our minds. And I must emphasize that this is not a dismissal of Mari or her business partner and their clear business accomplishments. But it is proof positive that we are all wide open today to public evaluation, criticism and discussion.
It will be fascinating to see how the ISMA responds publicly about this.
Wow Aliza, neat to see you here. Along with my friend Stefani Twyford we brought Digital Eve to Houston following heading up the Houston, Texas chapter of Webgrrls, and I had forgotten about the many, many details involved in bringing something like those organizations and chapters to fruition… and no certification was involved.
In some ways, it might have been a lot neater if we’d had these tools back then, and perhaps in some ways harder. As you point out, public scrutiny has never been easier, with all the good and bad that comes with that.
Wow, Houston Webgrrls! I wonder how things would have progressed with all of these newfangled tools but we did well back then with websites, email lists and offline meetings, didn’t we!
I think the crowdsourcing and public platform aspect of social media would have done Webgrrls a world of good back then. The organization still exists but unfortunately no longer founded on the same principles.
Yeah, I was also accused of being negative and “tearing down other people” by these folks today.
Um… no. I care about this space. I care about building sustainable best practices and a legitimate business field. I am not out to “tear down” anyone. Quite the contrary.
But I wouldn’t be able to live with myself if I just turned a blind eye to things that are so obviously questionable. In the absence of a regulatory body, we have a responsibility, as web denizens, to ask questions when they need to be asked, point out possible dangers, and to a certain extent police the space as much as we can… and need to.
There is nothing underhanded about what we’ve posted. It’s right there in the open for everyone to see, everyone to comment on, everyone to agree or disagree with.
I have serious issues with the packaging of this training, as do MANY people in this space, and remaining silent about those concerns just wasn’t an option I could stomach.
😉
“I care about this space. I care about building sustainable best practices and a legitimate business field”
This.
Just a quick thought:
any organization that incorporates emoticons into their website copy AND is unable to differentiate between the correct uses of “its” and “it’s” should be barred by federal law from offering professional certifications to any individual.
It definitely needs work, yes.
Birmingham City University offers an MA in Social Media.:
http://www.bcu.ac.uk/courses/media/socialmedia
A proper qualification, from an accredited body. and taught by my friend Jon Hickman.
Well, there you go. A little scary, but at least it’s a big step in the right direction.
Crap, I keep coming back to this…writing, deleting, moving on only to return because there’s a feeling I just can’t shake here.
Once upon a time, I worked in the wild world of professional associations, many of which had their own industry certification. And you know what? Certification was typically the most contentious of all the activities that the association engaged in. Now, some got it right. The post that @kriscolvin posted above comes from someone I know who is intimately and professionally knowledgeable of the challenges that come from building a certification program. Any organization approaching certification lightly needs to have their head examined.
Here’s my problem with ISMA’s program. It is not one created for the general welfare of either the industry or the consumer. It’s a program that is about making ISMA – I don’t know if its fair to level this but I’ll swing anyway – and Mari Smith boatloads of money. Have a gander at any legitimate professional association’s certification pages and you’ll see things like Standards and how the governing organization will ensure impartiality. Plus, the ISMA actually has to be a legitimate authority in order for their certification to hold any weight in the real world.
So, what I think we have here is a MLM-like, cheap money grab that isn’t certification. It’s training and really ought to be called that and little more.
Very good points, Chris. Without necessarily putting too much emphasis on Mari’s motives (which are her own and unknown to the rest of us,) I think you’re pretty much right about most of what you just suggested.
The packaging of this thing as a legitimate international certifying body offering a certification as opposed to simply being a training program provided by a private company is what we’re all cringing about.
Olivier
I have to admit I wasn’t at the LikeMinds event as I didn’t know you and don’t easily trust Social Media experts – but this post has quite much sorted out your credibility in my mind. It’s very well researched, you’ve chosen to respond calmly and with a lot of grace.
You’ve actually taught me to be more patient and calm down before responding to these things. Which there is plenty of in this field. There’s always fools and there’s always those who are happy to separate them from their monies.
Thank you also for giving a lot of ideas for developing proper courses around Social Media. Because looking at what’s available, I definitely feel that we can’t leave it to the Mark Shaws, Nick Tadds and Mari Smiths of this world. (Sorry. Snarky me coming out again. I will from now on read your post whenever I feel like venting.)
Thanks again. Hugely useful.
Well, you know, I think that most people are good at heart. It’s just… no matter how successful and respectable they’ve been in the past, sometimes they take a wrong turn. The issue isn’t so much how they ended up on the wrong path to begin with, but what they will do once they realize that they are indeed on the wrong path: Will the choose to continue moving in the wrong direction, or will they care enough about their clients, customers, partners and their own reputations to adjust course?
All I did was point out that they might just have gotten way off course with this thing. “In the weeds,” as I told Mari today over the phone.
The old proverb “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” may ring true again here: Right idea, wrong execution.
If I were shamelessly cynical, I might consider that Mari and Mark purposely schemed to create a bogus certifying body in order to be able to sell $3,000 training packages to unsuspecting suckers. But I am not.
And if I were overly naive, I might believe that Mari and Mark know so little about this space that they truly believed that this was the right course of action to build a legitimate international association governing Social media. But I am not.
The reality probably falls somewhere in the middle.
Let’s wait and see if Mari and Mark – once they’ve stopped being angry at me – make a move towards trying to create a legitimate organization or if they continue to sell their webinars under the guise of an international governing body.
Glad to hear I earned some street cred today. 😉
First off, props for dealing with this head on. What a slippery slope when a few try to dictate standards for the many, and in this case, charge a fortune for doing it. People new to this space (or worse, attempting to take advantage in this space) will look at certifications like this as a way to get to the finish line faster; it doesn’t make them any more capable or qualified, oh wait…except for that little piece of paper. psh.
Hopefully your post will give those getting out their wallets a moment to pause, reflect and say, “I have mucy work of my own to do.” There is no short cut, but if you try to buy one, trust me, the community will eat you alive.
Deb Kolaras
@BizCoachDeb
Yep. If anyone wants to take the course, great. Have at it. But they need to understand the context of this “association” and the validity of its “certification” program.
As a training program offered by a private company, I have no problem with this. It’s the packaging of it as a certification by an “international” association that I find deeply troubling.
@John Heaney – hear, hear for the correct (and appropriate) use of the English grammar.
@Olivier – thank you for putting together this very thoughtful post with plenty of resources and ideas not just for companies, but also for advisers and agencies — let’s not forget them, they are also building competencies and skills among their teams to meet client demand.
That’s a lot of money for what seems like a fairly thin deliverable. What is the deliverable again? Because if it’s proficiency in and the ability to bring social dynamics to fruition, we’re barely scratching the surface here. And yes, we need to involve the professionals on the product development side and customer support, at a minimum for it to be justifiable in the change participation will bring to the organization internally.
Well put.
The real deliverable seems to be the “certification,” since this type of training (content) is available for free (or near-free) just about everywhere.
Olivier – In Cutlip & Center’s Effective Public Relations (10th Ed, Glen Broom), there are five “indicators of professional status” for public relations that probably would apply to social media:
1. Specialized educational preparation to acquire unique knowledge and skills
2. A body of theory-based knowledge, developed through research, that provides us with principles of appropriate public relations practice.
3. Codes of ethics and standards of performance established and enforced by a self-governing association of colleagues.
4. Autonomy in practice and acceptance of personal responsibility by practitioners.
5. Recognition by the community of a unique and essential service.
PR isn’t even there yet, though it’s close. The theoretical basis for PR practice is still developing, and enforcement of standards of performance is still weak. Let’s not even talk about ethical standards in PR, which are all over the map.
Social media is too new to rate — people will make a living in it, but compared to other professions, it’s not there yet. This is not to denigrate those who are doing great work in the social media realm; it’s merely pointing out that with both theoretical and ethical parameters still being outlined, social media cannot rightly be called a profession, any more than could mainstream PR.
This point is made abundantly clear by Kristi Colvin:
“I can say I’m a doctor or lawyer, but I am not. It doesn’t matter if I go into Photoshop and design a certificate and read course material.”
Thanks for adding a much needed academic element to this discussion.
Providing training is one thing. Calling yourself a certifying body and selling certifications is another completely. The first is fine. The second is not.
😉
Sean,
Effective Public Relations ROCKS. It the book I use for my Intro. to PR class…a timeless classic. And it’s also the book that PRSA members looking to seek accreditation (the APR) study in order to prepare for the exam. Ironically, a lot of PR folks are calling the PRSA to task because their accreditation (which now includes Social Media) is being granted by people who aren’t engaged in social media themselves.
As for ethics and PR, I think they are there and the PRSA helps to guide them, but I believe that A) corporations don’t have an understanding of traditional PR ethics (I have been in those shoes) AND B) so many PR pros have diverse cultural, political and religious backgrounds…so ethics can be tough to pin down (just my opinion).
To your point, I agree, from a communications channel…social media is VERY FAR from any of the points above you’ve listed.
Beth Harte
Community Manager, MarketingProfs
@bethharte
Very interesting. I’m neck deep this evening in academic research on trust in social media, so this comes at an interesting time for me.
What’s most interesting to me is the perceived need for “social media” to have its own certification when at its core it is so closely tied to other professions that are the inquiry of research, theory, and professional practices, not to mention certification (of the accredited variety). This seems to be based on a fundamental misunderstanding of social media as a disparate phenomenon or profession – again, to Sean’s point.
Of course, that’s exactly why training is needed in this area, but I have to agree that there is a major difference between training and professional certification.
Will be interesting to see how this plays out. Thanks for sharing!
Tiffany, you and I are exactly on the same page. See my most recent post. 😉
Cheers.
Olivier,
Another well-penned post on an important topic. It is very tough, but direct, necessary and constructive criticism with an appropriate sense of passion about the subject.
The central challenge in my mind is that “certification” and “qualification” are often treated as synonymous. The former becomes a proxy for the latter when it’s hard to judge quality. Given this, and given the lack of institutional certification for social media, people will try to create their own systems, some taking what appear to be self-enriching shortcuts. This doesn’t bode well for companies who need help navigating the new world of customer engagement. It also bodes ill for social media practitioners by commoditizing hard-won skills and experiences.
I think there is an analogy here to the practice of user experience (UX) design, where there are very few (if any) objective certifications. One could argue that a degree in HCI or web-oriented design would qualify. However, even those degrees don’t encompass the range of skills involved with doing UX design work with real companies for real people. Many UX designers are self-educated, and have spent years learning, making mistakes and developing experiences out in the business world. They are judged by their ability to understand the problems of business and translate them into a visible result, rather than by a piece of paper hanging on the wall.
When it comes to social media, I think judging good work can be even more challenging, which is precisely why certification should be approached with great care, as you articulate. Best-of-breed practitioners in social media draw from a wide-ranging set of abilities, many of which are either subjective or difficult to wrap your head around, especially for those newly exposed to them. This evaluation challenge is why the social media practice is so vulnerable to hucksters and social-media snake-oil salespeople.
Without judging her ultimate qualifications, and recognizing her charm and positive nature, Mari Smith is quite skilled at self-promotion, with a stated mantra of “Always be marketing”. She may be the Pied Piper of Facebook, but perhaps this seeming praise has another interpretation. After all, didn’t the Pied Piper lead the unsuspecting astray with hypnotic distractions?
To me, the issue is simple:
Company XYZ providing a $2,995 training program = Fine.
Company packaging itself as an international governing body and offering “$2,995 certification program = not fine.
It’s a packaging issue and I think it is misleading, to say the least.
What also deeply troubles me is the seemingly complete absence of effort on ISMA’s part to create an association with real ties to the community of social media practitioners and thought leaders. We were all contacted after the fact, to donate content when they realized they needed to fill their cheap little box with… content.
When I put this up against what Gas Pedal is doing, the difference is shocking. ISMA’s failure to do this right don’t live in a vacuum.
I don’t see a problem with a 12 week certification course (although I haven’t taken any) as most people that I’ve seen taken them don’t call themselves “experts” but strategists or consultants. Social media is changing way too fast for anyone to call themselves an expert or guru.
I’ve been trained and have a degree in engineering, worked as a project manager for 10 years and I still don’t consider myself an expert in that area although I’m involved in some consulting work from time to time.
I also have a passion for real estate and been trained for the past 8 years but I don’t call myself an expert in that field either. I just share my experiences of what has brought us the most success.
The key is experience and working in the particular field and finding what works or doesn’t work for you.
Do I value my USC engineering degree? Yes, but I don’t flaunt it. Will I take a 12 week cert course? Yes, probably but not to flaunt some piece of paper but to ENHANCE my own 2 year social media testing in my particular niche.
Will I launch my own social media product one day? You betcha..but it will be less than $50.
Why can’t International just mean that people from all over the world can experience social media success as well and be part of the group?
I’m not trying to “hump” Mari’s leg although I’ve met her IRL and been buds with her for at least 1 year but just wanted to offer another perspective here. 🙂
Naomi, your comments are spot on.
Look, to me, the issue is simple:
Company XYZ providing a $2,995 training program = Fine.
Company packaging itself as an international governing body and offering “$2,995 certification program = not fine.
It’s a packaging issue and I think it is misleading, to say the least. Mari, mark and her friends created a certification body out of thin air.
Had Mari and Mark decided to put together a training program, called it Mari and mark’s Social Media traing course and charged $2,995 for it, people might have laughed, but no one would have had a problem with that.
It’s the context of the association and certification that we all have a problem with. Right idea, wrong execution.
Cheers,
😉
The funny thing is she has already had a certification class even before ISMA and it was under the name Mentor with Mari program. So it’s ok to have the organization if it has a different name? I think that it’s more semantics than anything else. You say tomato, I say tomatoe. But I will say it again, I’m not humping Mari’s leg, just laying out some facts and it’s ok to disagree. 🙂
I’m not defending the ISMA but here is why I believe a certification is necessary – now and in the future:
1) All the self proclaimed experts have a VERY opinionated view on what social media is, how it should be applied and what’s right or wrong. Fine but no corporate process can be developed on an individual opinion – right?
2) Most social media gurus argue “Corporations don’t get it” but hope they can make a buck by helping them with their experience from a few useless social media marketing campaigns – right?
3) How on earth shall a manager hire a social media manager or how should anybody hire a consultant for that matter if you just walk in and express your opinion?
4) Too many social media consultants are just marketing geeks to move their business into a new direction and many of the posters here just demonstrate it. Would anybody with a 10,000 people organization hire someone like that? No way!
All a certification does (if done right) is this”
It states what somebody learned a certain subject matter, what methods they adopt and what processes they take to achieve a certain goal. Not more and not less. And the more people work with such a method successfully, the more likely the get a job. If somebody likes a certain methodology and they know many adopt it – it is just easier to add people to a project.
Who thinks this can be done by some social media marketing gurus – keep dreaming. Keep arguing that corporations don’t get it and keep spending time in fighting the certificate.
And this is my “opinion”
Axel
http://xeesm.com/AxelS
P.S.
I’m sure there are a bunch of spelling and grammar errors in this post and guess what – who finds it can keep it 😉 See my statement on this here:
http://www.axelschultze.com/html/onlyaxelcanreadthis.cfm
Alex, we agree: There should be a certification process. No question.
My point is that Mari, Mark and their “organization” are the wrong people to bring it to the space. Not because I don’t like them (I don’t even know them) but because of they way they went about it.
So… right idea, wrong execution.
I wouldn’t dream of creating an international certification body for brand managers or social media directors. No matter how smart and cool I may be, it would be a sham. Know what I mean?
When a legitimate body emerges, I will probably give it my full support.
Cheers, Alex. 😉
“3) How on earth shall a manager hire a social media manager or how should anybody hire a consultant for that matter if you just walk in and express your opinion?”
Really?! That’s a joke, right?
EVERY DAY marketing, PR, branding “professionals” walk in and express their opinons. There are hundreds of thousands of them that wouldn’t know maketing, PR and brand theory if they tripped over it…and yet, amazingly, they are NOT certified AND seem to be gainfully employed.
How do they hire a social media manager? ENGAGE in social media themselves so that they know what the best practices are, what their constituents expect and what marketing objectives (measurable, of course), strategies and tactics will have the best bag for the buck (ROI). And…QUALIFY that the person applying knows MORE than just how to use Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn.
I think it’s absolutely crucial for any marketing manager, director, VP or CMO to have experience in ALL aspects of marketing (segmentation right on down to tactics)…how else can they properly market and implement an integrated strategy?
Being certified in social media is like being certified in direct mail and yet not having a clue about who you are mailing to, what it should say, and why you are even sending it (that’s the ‘marketing’ part).
Contrary to popular belief…not just anyone can be a marketer.
Beth Harte
Community Manager, MarketingProfs
@bethharte
Olivier,
I really enjoy your constructive and educational content. This post adds nothing to the conversation about “building brands through passion, innovation, creativity, and common sense”. You just sound like somebody stepped on your toe corn. Rants like this one make you look petty, which judging from your blog content and tweets you’re not. Why stoop to the level of those you criticize? Though I understand the temptation and your anger, I encourage you to consider taking the high road.
You say doing nothing would legitimize this operation. I disagree. Outfits like this one thrive on the any-publicity-is-good-publicity principle. Calling them out like this won’t stop them from pursuing their business model, as terrible as it may be. It’s not about stomaching the BS, which it totally is. I just think that talking about something legitimizes it.
Call me cold, but anyone who is going to pay $3K for this course without doing their background research and other due diligence perhaps deserves to be out three grand.
Peter
I thought long and hard about writing this post, Peter.
All of ten minutes, that is.
I kid, but the reality of it is this: I am not Gandhi. Not every post here is meant to be inspirational and uplifting. Sometimes, I have to put the best practices stuff side to point out topics, events, trends and even organizations that exemplify the exact opposite of what people should be doing.
Did I put on kids’ gloves? No. But did I outright punch them in the face with brass knuckles? No. I went right down the middle with the facts, my opinion, and my criticism (which I did find constructive, actually).
Here’s the thing, Peter:
To me, the issue is simple:
1. Company XYZ providing a $2,995 training program = Fine.
2. Company packaging itself as an international governing body and offering “$2,995 certification program = not fine.
When it comes to people knowing better than to spend $3K on a training program, there is a HUGE difference between scenario 1 and scenario 2 when it comes to determining the value of such a program. Businesses who don’t know any better might think twice before forking over $3K to attend webinars. But an “international” organization? That “appears” to be a lot more legit.
So anyway. All of this to say, I agree: I could have taken the high road. I could have turned a blind eye to this. I could have written about an number of things today. But I didn’t. I wrote about this instead. Why? because I felt the need to get an online discussion going about this bizarre ISMA thing. The volume of offline conversations about it was getting overwhelming. It was time.
If it makes me petty to care enough about this space to raise a red flag over this, I’ll just have to live with it. I hate to disappoint or fall short of anyone’s expectations, but I guess it’s bound to happen every once and again. From where I stand, I would rather it be over this than something more damaging to me, my peers or my clients. 😉
So Peter, I appreciate the comment, completely respect your opinion, and thank you for taking the time to share this with me.
Cheers.
You can package yourself as whatever you want, the key is to get to the substance, especially when four-figure pricing is involved. “International” and “certification” are just words, and yes, they’re misleading in this case. But should we hate Apple for not being a purveyor of fruit?
Anyway, I hope it all works out and everybody gets what they want. Good luck with the fight!
Yep.
There’s really no fight. At least not on my end. I said my piece. What ISMA does with this feedback (post and comments) is their business. I’m kind of done talking about it, really. 😀
Have a good weekend, Peter.
I agree with Peter, and also add my own extension of his comment about people needing to do their own background research. That’s what I did, and everyone else I know did, before signing up with the Social Media Academy, run by Axel Schultze who posted earlier.
As far as I know, and we keep in general touch between us graduates – across the world – noone would say that they did not get value. Now, as we also know in these days of social media if people did not get value then many many people would hear about it. In fact given the mindset well represented in this particular forum any such misgivings would be spread far and wide as part of the hysteria.
Like thousands of others I follow/subscribe to Olivier and many of the other experts who have chimed in to this post. I have not enclosed “experts” in quotes because they do offer great expertise and insights into certain things.
How I use their expertise is to plug their point knowledge into the business frameworks and methods I learnt at the Social Media Academy.
The whole rage over this post and its tsumani of support from the experts absolutely confirms in my mind that it is absolutely necessary to stay apart from their narrow-minded world views and to just pick and choose from their many undoubtedly useful bits on specific topics and cases.
What really amazes me is that none of the experts offer a coherent top-down business framework for social media. The Social Media Academy does, and I’m proud to be a graduate and hold a certificate which says Certified Social Media Consultant.
I think satisfied customers count for some credibility, right?
I expect that from the nature of this forum I will now receive a whole lot of personal abuse. I know that you can’t say how stupid I was for doing the course because I’m a satisfied customer. I know that you can’t criticism the course because you don’t know its content. So there is only me left to have a go at – do your best!
Walter Adamson
Certified Social Media Consultant
http://xeesm.com/walter
I have done some studying of the Social Media Academy site, and I see why you feel there is value in that program – a lot of the topics and information seem really neat.
Your programs there feel a bit different to me, though, and more advanced in some cases, than what ISMA is offering. This page, for example: http://www.socialmedia-academy.com/html/us-masters-class.cfm with its list of requirements indicates that the Academy is run more like a school in context of having to pass through levels of education or real-life experience in order to continue advancing with the certifications. That just feels totally different (and more credible) to me than paying for a certificate without having gone through different qualifying steps (except to attend webinars.) I didn’t have time to study both sites closely so take this with a grain of salt, but it stuck out to me from the brief time spent on both sites.
As to some of the experts not offering a coherent top-down business framework for social media, I cannot speak for everyone here, but Olivier has been laying the groundwork in public (here on his blog, in speaking gigs and keynotes and at events) and in private (with clients such as hospitals and universities) and has now defined it in a workshop he will be conducting in cities around the world in 2010, called Red Chair. He’s not giving people a certificate at the end of the event (I’m hoping they get a pen or maybe a neat notebook) and he’s not starting a school, but he is putting this work into practice in an educational way (for companies, agencies and consultants) that does not claim certification where none can be verified – that’s the big difference in the approach of a certifying body and one who offers training based on expert-level capabilities, to me.
Walter, look into ISMA a little deeper and compare it to Social Media Academy. Apples and oranges, my friend.
I can’t say I’m all that familiar with the Social Media Academy, but at least I can say 2 things about it:
1. It markets itself as an academy. A place of learning, in other words. NOT the “international social media association.” Very different positioning and scope of influence. There is no ambiguity as to its role,purpose or stature.
2. SMA seems to take its training programs and certification process seriously.
I wouldn’t dream of putting the two organizations side by side. There is simply no comparison.
Cheers, Walter.
Olivier,
Thank for that post. Agree 1000% ! The sharks have begun to come out of the wood work.
@ihospitality
Olivier, excellent post, and your responses have been equally measured and thoughtful. This thread is on fire, and for good reason.
I believe if I were in your shoes, I would have replied in the exact same manner to the invitation.
Let me get this straight – the organization is charging $3000 to certify a professional designation on it’s ratepayers?
The language is very misleading. There is a huge difference between a designated certification, and merely a certificate of participation. I’m certain that millions of university degree carrying candidates would agree with you.
With respect to Peter’s post above, I have to disagree with the “any-publicity-is-good-publicity principle” in this scenario. I believe that if you’re silent in this case, you may as well be compliant. This is a situation where opinions should be heard loud and clear. There is no official designation as yet, and so there needs to be opinion from every expert who is willing to speak up.
The word of Social media travels far too swiftly; saying nothing allows any company (legitimate or otherwise) to fly under radar, and build strong social reputation very quickly.
I got echoes today of companies enthusiastically forwarding ISMA’s info to their social media “advisors,” thinking it was legit. Luckily, the record was set straight in these cases.
Think about all of the organizations and individuals who don’t have someone to filter this through. That’s what worries me.
Thanks for the comment. 🙂
THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS FABULOUS BLOG POST!! 🙂
Chris Heuer, of Social Media Club fame, has started the “Social Media Education Connection” this year with the goal of addressing certifications, degree programs, etc. for SM.
I am pressing hard for standards and governance on many levels: curriculum, faculty requirements and program levels, etc.
—> http://smcedu.ning.com/ “If you learn it, teach it.”
#smcedu hashtag
See online resources for existing curriculum, educators, campuses, etc.
Susan Beebe
Founder, @SMCeduROC (a chapter of this new orgz).
co-Founder, @SMC_Rochester
See? There you go. Can you forward this to Mari and Mark so they can see how to start building a real framework?
Done! Here’s my tweet to Mari, sent earlier this evening:
–> http://twitter.com/susanbeebe/status/6357776345
Mari just replied to my tweet here:
“MariSmith @susanbeebe I have the greatest regard for @chrisheuer & all he’s accomplishing with the Social Media Clubs. IMO, there’s room for everyone.”
Thanks Susan
SMCEDU not so much about certification as it is workforce preparedness and media literacy. I have a $60,000 piece of paper in my storage unit somewhere too, doesnt tell you much really about me – well, maybe the inter-disciplinary bit is somewhat instructive, but not really.
We are leveraging our somewhat global (SMC groups in Africa now as well as Australia, Europe, Asia, Mexico and US) network to create relationships between our local chapters and local universities to help bring better social media education to schools – the continuing education and professional education areas are a bit different territory really that are outside the scope of SMCEDU.
We started by inviting participation from local folks and now have small ‘pilot’ initiatives underway in DC, Richmond, VA, Stockholm and Australia. This really means some good people are trying to find ways to do more with local schools though Richmond, VA and Stockholm are doing some really cool things already. So its still really nascent, but we are fortunate to have a passionate smart hard working project manager/blogger pushing things forward in Yong C Lee and a clearly social mission.
Early on I reached out to Howard Rheingold to make sure we would be including his http://socialmediaclassroom.com/ initiative. We are also working to support and be interconnected with other existing efforts like Classroom 2.0 which has a terrific community.
While SMCEDU has education and training elements to it, and we hope to be creating an open courseware that is peer reviewed and field tested, we are really more focused on strengthening the connections between the different sectors of society, in this case, the professional and the academic.
That said, it is open to become other things and will as more smart people contribute to it like Steve Raddick from Booz Allen Hamilton has along with his colleagues who really lit a fire under my butt to at least get things in motion.
If you are interested in this, please do come join the Ning community and help out. If you are a teacher and want to connect with some local professionals to come in and guest lecture, look for a local social media club chapter near you and reach out and say hi.
Next year we have plans to make the program more formalized and hire some staff – looking for some grants from foundations if you know of any 🙂
Thanks for the clarification, Chris. Sounds pretty solid already. I like that you clearly see the difference between certification, preparedness and literacy.
Thanks Chris!! Excellent reply 🙂
Olivier,
I admire your will to be honest and blunt regarding this certification. No disrespect to these people, but just the fact that they offer this makes them seem “spammy” to me. It reminds me of all the crap that came out last year like “Earn Money Using Twitter” or “Learn How Twitter Can Make You Money.”
And this, of course, is just a thought, but isn’t it a little early in the social media game to establish a certification? We are all still learning this space and while people like yourself, Chris Brogan, Mack Collier , Amber Naslund, etc., are the cream of the crop, some people who doubt themselves like Scott Gould and Kristi Colvin actually understand it better than they think they do. I know at times I wonder if I know as much as I should and self-doubt creeps in, but I’ve actually got a good grasp of it.
As far as my own knowledge goes, I understand marketing/advertising because I have an advertising degree from an accredited college (Roll Tide! Beat the Gators!), I have copywriting experience, basic SEO experience, etc… But I understand best practices and strategies of social media because I follow people like you, Chris Brogan, Jason Falls, Amber, Mack, etc…
As long as someone has a marketing background and learns social media from the best, do we really need the certification? I just feel like I could take some certification class or what not and say “Yep, learned that from Olivier, already knew that because of Mack, read that at ChrisBrogan.com.”
Can I just make a badge with each of your names on it, a check mark beside each, and say I’m certified?
😀 Yes. I’ll create a “certified by TBB” badge just for you. LOL
Many of the people who fall for Twitter “optimization” schemes (from automating follows to “making $643 today” nonsense) are fans of this clique, yes. So your observation about the “spammy” vibe is right on.
And yes, a chunk of what I know, I have learned from interacting with Beth Harte, Mack Collier, Kisti Colvin, Trey Pennington, Scott Gould, Valeria Maltoni, Andrew Gerrard, Drew Ellis, Kim Brater, Jacob Morgan and scores of others including you. I have yet to see anyone on the advisory board of ISMA join any of our conversations or contribute the slightest sliver of insight to what we do. All I seem to be able to get out of the two I have had exchanges with are a) a whole lot of name-dropping and b) a lecture on how successful they are.
Is it way too soon to start working on the framework of a certifying body and certification course? No. Now’s the time to start. I think that collectively, a number of us are already building bits and pieces of it.
But is it too early to actually launch a certification program? Yes. No question. Why? Because before a training program can become a certification program, the body behind it has to become accepted and recognized by the industry as THE authority. That involves the creation of standards, for starters. It involves getting the right people to join and collaborate and build it up. It requires consensus and serious work by people with credibility across the space.
None of the things I just listed exist today. As far as I can tell, Andy Sernovitz’ group is the closest thing the industry has today, and it is still in its infancy. Moreover, there is no guarantee that it will opt to even move in that direction. So right now, it’s wait-and-see. We’ll keep doing, learning, sharing and improving. 😉
Thanks for the comment.
This is the kind of discussion that needs to happen. THIS, my friends, is Social Media. Wouldn’t it be interesting if this was a catalyst for the very things we all know should existfor our industry.
Here is my other blog post about “certified” social media consultants http://twurl.nl/1ceahz & finding a good consultant
This whole thing smacks of Y2K experts all over again!
It’s amazing a group of self-prophesing colleagues can throw up a website and come of so authoritative. My concern is that the general public will be dooped by this scammy site and actually plunk down ~$3,000 bucks for this “international certificate”. It’s like a dev QA’ing their own code – FAIL.
So wrong on so many levels… gah!
Yep.
Olivier, this post and the ensuing conversation in the comments powerfully demonstrates so much of what social media is about. Bravo.
Another issue with certification that hasn’t been raised here yet: Professional certification should not be dependent on taking a single course of study offered by the certifying institution. The conflict of interest compromises any value the certification would have.
Further, the certifying institution should provide a means for individuals to qualify for certification by demonstrating their professional experience, with a nominal processing fee. Many legitimate professional certifying bodies operate this way. They make the certification process quite rigorous, and each candidate’s experience and credentials are reviewed carefully. ISMA does not appear to be offering anything like this; the only way to qualify is to pay for the webinars.
In any case, I agree with those who think professional certification in social media makes no sense given the fundamentals of social media: The proof of one’s professionalism will be social proof, and your validators will be your network.
Very good points, John. The single course thing and the conflict of interest thing really resonate with me. Thanks for adding to the discussion. Good stuff.
Bonsoir, Olivier, Le Batisseur de Marques,
Thank your opening the opening gambit; most social I must say.
This one point is most salient: “Company packaging itself as an international governing body and offering “$2,995 certification program”.
Back in 2004 when WOMMA was being formed under the guidance of Andy Sernovitz, with support from Pete Blackshaw, Max Kalehoff and other ‘pioneers’, we recognized that something very exciting was happening. In the mutual quest to understand what was then ‘User-Generated Media’, some basic objectives were set one of which was to bring order to an emerging business discipline — to build a nomenclature as a way to get people to work within a basic framework. It wasn’t perfect but it was a step in the right direction, accomplished in a way that was very collaborative.
Certainly there was no intent to ‘certify’ anyone or to provide something I call ‘paid up legitimacy’. WOMMA was successful in producing the first set of metrics & guidelines. This gave legs to an emerging discipline and set the stage for buidling a new industry. No one required certification of any sort as we were all professionals in our own right. The real task was to bring legitimacy to the craft of Social Media and drive client adoption.
Fast forward 5 years: As it stands today, Social Media is still at a formative stage with a long way to go before becoming a ‘currency’ within the marketing mix. We’ll know its time has come when there is universal adoption by Client organizations — advertisers — who regard social media as an essential part of the business toolkit. All the certification in the world won’t make this happen but solid, proven business practice, will.
As for certification by the “Company packaging itself as an international governing body and offering “$2,995 certification program”: market forces will ultimately determine your destiny as you are well within your right to pursue commerce. Mark these words though – it is said that “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”. Very true in the case of what we call Social Media. Hellish indeed! You have had a glimpe of the future. May the force be with you.
Cheers,
Ted Morris
4ScreensMedia
@morristed
Thanks, Ted. That “road to hell” thing came up earlier in our discussion. Very a propos for this topic. 😉
You’ve hit on a crucial point about WOMMA: The organization first aimed to create standards with the help of the community and NOT to certify (or charge a hefty fee for that certification). ISMA seems to have taken a radically different route: Ignore the community and go straight for people’s wallets.
Market forces notwithstanding, I feel that we have a responsibility to raise red flags when something in the community seems off.
I would be happy to let market forces take care of Company XYZ’s $2,995 training program, but this is different. This is a company packaging itself as a governing body (which it isn’t) and selling what would seem like a legitimate certification to unsuspecting newbies. This required that red flags be raised. Now that the conversation about this has begun, I hope that everyone will be more knowledgeable for it. 😉
Cheers, Ted. Thanks for the comment. 🙂
With all due respect to Ted and WOMMA (so ironic that I was thinking of them when I first read the post), but our firm wanted to become a “contributor” in the metric framework, and there was a membership fee and a “pay to play” aspect which I didn’t particularly agree with. Also, one noticeable thing about the the advisory component was that it was completely absent of input from vendors in the monitoring, analysis and measurement space. I recall at the time speaking about WOMMA with some folks who I would often turn to for counsel, and while the consensus was that there was legitimacy in its objectives, it was still too early a period in SM’s evolve to map out a framework.
I’m a casual observer (admittedly, I’ve never heard of you or a number of names you mention in this post and arrived here via @BethHarte’s tweet) studying the underpinning of your online petition. If I understood the logic correctly, the reason your calling this organization out is to weed out the next wave of social media pariah.
That’s a good thing, but the line is long. In fact, each day, I become slightly more disenchanted with the kind of claims being made by brands that have already earned my trust, and in one fell swoop, decide to move in a blunderous manner in an attempt to win over a new, trendier, winnable market opportunity.
I use the term disenchanted carefully because I’m an optimist, and believe there is no illusion in giving people and companies second chances. Whether its a start-up messing-up badly, or a long-standing brand, there’s a lesson and experience to inform our choices to remain a customer or not. At its most basic level of understanding, caveat emptor is a discipline and we are all perfectly capable of making decisions on whether the noise from the BS meters peaking becomes too much too bear.
If you followed my points this far, then perhaps you may be able to help me reconcile the public service element of your post. Namely, that the mudslinging is appropriate because the organization has absolutely no legitimate claim of authority in social media. If the answer to legitimacy is found somewhere in the idea of getting the heavyweights and rock-stars to be the heirs to the certification throne , then this debate will seem friendlier and more appealing in preparing for the onslaught of harsh and unrelenting criticism from the social media circle-jerk pundits.
Joseph
@RepuTrack
Joseph, you’re a hell of a wordsmith.
Look, I’m not big on the “Social Media Rock Stars” thing either. Honestly, anyone who claims to be a Social Media anything (unless their job title has “Social Media” in it somewhere) is full of crap.
What I like about Beth Harte is that she’s a PR professional who gets Social Media. In other words, her specialty is not Social Media, yet she is a thought leader and an authority in the space. (See the difference?)
I don’t really want any of this to turn into mud-slinging. It’s just that I keep running into people claiming to be social media experts when they are clearly not…
1. They obviously don’t understand the space beyond the fact that it involves Twitter, facebook, Youtube, LinkedIn and blogs.
2. They don’t understand how to operationalize social media. At all.
3. They don’t have a single specific area of deep practical knowledge of the space. (Like online reputation management, community management, brand insights management, monitoring and research, customer support, etc.)
4. The services they sell are crap. ($85K for a Twitter account, a Facebook page and a blog? Believe it. It happens.)
… and this particular “organization” basically took that kind of sleazy bottom-feeding poser culture to a whole new level. It’s completely unacceptable. And those of us who actually care about growing this space properly, those of us who work our asses off to help businesses understand how to really integrate all of this for their benefit and that of their customers don’t take kindly to this kind of self-serving subterfuge.
Bottom-line: There’s a right way to develop a governing body and perhaps someday a series of standards that will guide certification programs. But let me be absolutely clear when I tell you that what ISMA is doing isn’t anywhere near the right way to do this.
So don’t look at this as one clique versus another. It isn’t Rock Stars vs. direct marketers. It isn’t old vs. new. It isn’t West coast vs. East coast. It’s simply ethics and professionalism vs. opportunistic bullshit. Until ISMA reboots and takes my recommendations to heart (which I think will be a good start,) it will never be anything more than an overpriced webinar mill advertising itself as something it clearly isn’t.
Thanks for the comment, Joseph. 🙂
Au contraire, I am a marketing professional who gets PR and social media. 😉
Just like Anna Barcelos, I have 15 years of integrated marketing experience, perhaps that’s why we see things a tad different. 😉
Beth Harte
Community Manager, MarketingProfs
@bethharte
Beth – you bring up a fascinating aspect of social media practitioners: We all come at social media from a variety of educations, backgrounds and experiences.
My path spans 15 years of writing, marketing, PR, running a nonprofit organization, starting and running several Internet companies.
I think our backgrounds and experiences are incredibly relevant to how we see this industry and how we interact within it.
My bad, Beth. I thought PR was your specialty for some reason. I stand corrected. Sorry about that.
I second what Chris Bailey said. I work in the association world too, and while I’ve never worked directly in certification, I know enough about it to know it’s an administrative bear and takes an incredible amount of time, money and work to establish and keep going. The idea of an “association” charging $3,000 in exchange for a “certification” demeans the work of real associations who follow exacting standards with their certification programs. What association wouldn’t love to just start charging that amount of money for a certification program? The thing is that you can’t–it’s not ethical or legitimate. I’m not positive about the ramifications of doing it the wrong way, but I’m pretty sure they’re hefty. My husband is an association COO but he’s out of town–I need to ask him about the particulars then will have to blog about this because you’ve got me all riled up on behalf of legitimate professional associations!
Thanks for bringing this to light and for being willing to stick your neck out there by sharing so much detail.
Thanks for your comment. That’s interesting – Kristi Colvin was wondering about the legality of doing something like what ISMA is attempting. As much as I despise what they are doing, ISMA tactics seem only mildly deceptive -unethical perhaps – but not outright illegal. You think that these people could actually be fined somehow?
Olivier – there is a need for certification – it just needs to be done right by a 3rd party that is not just a certification machine, though there have been many of those that are quite legitimate industry standards bearers over the years. I have been studying how to approach this for a while with regards to historical elements from guilds and also modern organizations.
First up for us though is to build the network (which we have done) and then to reinforce it with a bit more infrastructure (what we are doing during Q1 next year) and then we can have an honest conversation about what aspects of social media skills can be certified and what aspects of creative douchebagery should not be. There are some things like ethics, writing for blogs/twitter, appropriate social engagement with customers, monitoring configuration, and legal issues where having a test and having someone maintain current knowledge in these areas via a certification program makes sense. But to the point made above by someone else, there is a need for many areas of certification not just one…
We have been approached by many people who offer social media certification programs over the past couple years – we still haven’t found one that we were enthusiastic about endorsing. We were never approached by this group though.
I think this matter of professional certification will get resolved properly and professionally in 2010 and I hope our global membership will be key contributors to the solution.
Susan – I dont know if what this other group is doing is right or wrong, good or bad – we would have to evaluate it fairly – I think too many people who learned the ropes from worldly experience are too quick to dismiss formalized education programs on the face of it (just as too many academics dismiss real world experience) Take a closer look at the substance of the program before throwing it out and casting aspersions on it.
From a quick glance at the site about the benefits, it seems they offer pro members (300 per year on top of the certification costs) access to free weekly webinars, so I would hope this is what Olivier was being invited to do (if that was a teacher position request I would be really concerned).
Be concerned: My understanding (and no one at ISMA has corrected me on this) is that the request was for me to teach the measurement/ROI module of the certification course. And as far as I can tell, this group didn’t approach anyone outside of its own “network” until very recently.
Aside from that, I like your approach. It seems sensible.
As a student, I have become painfully aware of the importance social media image integrity. This post is great supplemental material to aid my further education. It builds on the same message being taught in my classroom, and offers a real world example of how social media amplifies ANYTHING written. However, I seem to be very lucky that my University offer such an educational service. It seems many internet users have heard the social media bandwagon is in town! It is mandatory to jump on and do whatever they can to develop their online brand, be it good or bad.
Thank-you for blogging advice to assist those unlucky users which, let’s hope unintentionally, keep putting their feet in their mouths.
-Erik
Thanks, Erik.
(Exhale.) Olivier, there really isn’t much I can add that everyone hasn’t already. I was pondering on even commenting, but something just kept bothering me about this ISMA thing. (Leigh Durst got me all fired up with her earlier post.)
My background is in integrated marketing communications (mostly B2B) for 15 years. I started w/traditional marketing, moving to online and now have been involved with social media for a short time. I am my own guinea pig first, still learning daily, and therefore can never profess to be a SM expert (I have a hard time even imagining calling myself a marketing expert). I guess the main thing I’m having a hard time with is that I consider social media another part of the marcom toolbox. Therefore, I’m more apt to take courses in social media at a college to supplement my marketing degree then any random certification program. I’m not sure how you can even nail down a true social media curriculum (creating a Facebook page is not social media, it’s another marketing tool to accelerate dialog with customers). What about people who are not marketers and get a certificate from this association? It is very misleading and I feel bad for those who will most certainly fall for it. Even worse companies who may hire these people because of this piece of paper.
Maybe it’s me, but social media makes no sense if it’s not part of the marketing mix. Again, the marketer in me is programmed that way.
Other people have mentioned here that this smoke and mirrors will blind people from those who are truly experienced in this field. We know who they are. Why? Because they bring solid evidence through their tried and true practices, strategies, and metrics. These people need no mention because their reputations precedes them. Most are happy to volunteer valuable information others who are even 1/100 qualified charge money for!
Lots of kudos to you for calling this BS out in a way that was candid and respectful.
Fantastic points, Anna.
The one-size-fits-all curriculum is pretty scary to me. When I asked Mari about the content of the “certification” program, she immediately started listing LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook and Youtube. (“Optimizing” LinkedIn, “maximizing” your impact on Twitter, etc.) I was blown away by that. I suggested to her that perhaps creating a certification program based mostly on teaching cursory webinars on “tools” might be missing the mark by miles. (Sure, there are sessions on measurement and other non-tool topics, but they’re filler, not the foundation.)
As an aside, I don’t think that these people understand that a Social Media training course (let alone a certification program) needs to recognize (and address) the fact that social media isn’t just an integrated marketing subject. A Huge chunk of it is – and in that respect, that portion of the program needs to take into account PR, marcom, reputation management, marketing, advertising, digital, etc. – but there the rest of the program also needs to dive into things like Human Resources, Legal, IT, ERP, internal collaboration (a huge element of this that people in the MLM world are completely oblivious to).
For ISMA to focus almost exclusively on “how to use Twitter,” “how to use Facebook,” etc. is just sad.
Thanks a lot for the comment. 😉
(Edit, hey it’s late :-)) Most are happy to volunteer valuable information others who ARE NOT even 1/100 qualified charge money for!
@Chris Heuer – always selling he 😉
Quick and simple question on this topic. How come Mari Smith has not come in to express her viewpoints?
In our line of work, lets just say we see this kind of thing happen a lot. I have to give Olivier full props for really taking a stand here on his issues while still retaining an intellectually balanced manner and positive outlook on the future. It is quite rare and I must say very refreshing in the sometimes lawless ways of the social Web.
In response to Mark Van Baale, I think Mark’s earlier response is sufficient in so far as pointing out that the public airing of the things that need fixing has now been well noted. IMHO, if we are talking about timeliness of a response, in fairness Olivier has taken his scrutiny to such a granular level of detail that a response absent of any solid commitment to retool would be kind of pointless.
The positives here are that its happening in the social Web. And that they have been giving marching orders by someone who seems to really care enough to post his feelings on what’s wrong with it. I don’t mean to sentimentalize or suggest its a cause for celebration whenever brands or companies get called out in this way, but the optimist in me I’m starting to think that the email that was sent to Olivier will tease out whether they’re as passionate about their work as the community that it would support.
The silver lining is to look at moments like this as opportunities, and its boil over as a turning point for standardizing training, certification or measurement models in a way that takes the negative incident ratio of this discussion and turns it into the framework for the kind of change that serves as an inspiration to other companies watching, studying and aspiring to do the same.
Joseph
@RepuTrack
Mark,
Mari and I discussed our difference of opinions on the phone. She was cordial and professional, so I have to give her props for that.
Whether Mari or anyone at ISMA decides to comment here or not is completely up to them. All I can do here is express my opinions and hope to start a conversation.
Cheers, Mark. 🙂
This, for me, is actually a much bigger discussion. I have a big, big problem with the way many certification and accreditation programs are put together, period. Why? They’re academic knowledge, not practical applied knowledge.
You can only test someone on speculative scenarios. A multiple choice test isn’t sufficient after digesting a bunch of theory in a text book. And yet, this is the way loads of accreditation programs are built, including ones I’ve had in past lives.
I think the discussion needs to be centered not around what some organizations are doing badly (my feeling is that they’re going to be outed simply because they’ll lack participation or the folks out $3K will ask what they got). Same deal with the folks that are self anointing with expert titles. I don’t really care. Caviat freakin’ emptor, man. Scam artists exist anywhere and we will not stem that simply by getting mad at it.
Instead, we need to be having the conversation about whether certification really IS needed in this space (I don’t think it’s solving the core problem), but if it is, how do we create a program wherein individual accreditation is based on tangible, demonstrated achievements (big or small), practical knowledge, and results in a business context, not just regurgitation of a bunch of information that’s vetted as “right”?
I hear what you’re saying here Amber, and its essentially a throw-down that shakes academia at its very foundation. At the Ivy, University and College levels, them are some pillars with seriously deep authenticity with tried, tested and true roots. And I may be alone here by saying this, but the practicality and knowledge acquisition isn’t always about being able to relate it to the real world as much as the value in the discipline. Anyhow, I suppose I have to rationalize it this way given the “test” the University years put me through.
Suffice it to say, I could have really used your logic with a particular 3rd year prof 😉
Amber, Joseph, I have a BIGGER issue with throwing out academic theory than I do with fly-by-night certifications.
[Going to college or university is as much about learning how to be a critical thinker as it is about learning or mastering a subject (no matter what it is). That said, I do agree that a lot of colleges and universities are lacking in providing students with practical application of what they are learning. ]
Back to the topic… Social media ISN’T changing marketing, PR, branding, etc. It’s bringing it back to it’s roots. Marketing always involved customers first…it’s the corporations that left them behind with their inside-out views. It’s corporations that don’t plan properly because they rush to get LEADS, LEADS, LEADS.
Oy. When are are going to recognize that it’s NOT an academic or theory issue, but a management issue that has been around for 50 years that has provided us, often, with INEFFECTIVE practical application?
Amber, as for certifications and accreditations…totally agree with you that they aren’t based in what’s practically happening and that’s why the PRSA and IABC get a lot of flack by people who do know better.
I judged a BIG association competition for a topic that’s currently on everyone’s blogs (I can’t divluge, sorry) and let me tell you… I threw HALF of the entries out because they didn’t have MEASURABLE OBJECTIVES nor did they show how they were successful. It was downright pitiful that these agencies (some large ones we all know) and handful of internal folks actually thought their work “award worthy.” So, there’s practical application…but a lot didn’t meet the standards of PROVING that they were effective.
The bottomline is that at the end of the day people are going to do what their management tells them to do (if that’s the culture). Academic learnings, practical experience and even a ‘certification’ might all be a moot point until organizations adopt an outside-in perspective and actually understand what’s truly going on in their industries/markets. Otherwise, it’s hearsay.
Sorry for going down a rat hole. Caps are not for yelling, just to draw attention… 😉
Beth Harte
Community Manager, MarketingProfs
@bethharte
Beth,
“Social media ISN’T changing marketing, PR, branding, etc. It’s bringing it back to it’s roots.”
Nice. 🙂
I hope so, yes. Anyone who starts the Social Media certification conversation with Twitter, Facebook and Youtube before creating that philosophical underpinning is completely missing the mark. It would be like creating a copywriter certification program based primarily on how to use various word processors and typewriters. 😉
Thanks, Amber.
Two things:
1. It’s inevitable that certifications will become part of the Social Media landscape: Universities are already launching social media tracks. For better or for worse, it’s going to happen.
In that light, it’s important to start thinking about what standards this type of certification/bachelor’s program, etc. will be based on. What types of courses will have to be taught. What will constitute “experience.” How to test.
So the question (at least in my mind) isn’t so much whether or not we should have certifications, whether it’s the right thing or not, whether it’s practical to even go in that direction. It’s inevitable. It’s going to happen. So the real question now is: How do we do it right?
And perhaps more importantly, WHO will develop these programs? Who will teach them? University professors who have spent their entire careers in academia? People who have never practiced community management? Who have never actually managed a customer support team? Who haven’t spent hour after hour after hour doing this stuff for years? People like Mari and Mark?
I can argue for or against the need for certifications all day long – keep the lattes and the beers coming. But I think we’re past that point. For better or for worse, it’s coming. So we need to start thinking about how to make sure it’s done right. 😉
2. We can’t just turn a blind eye to scams, blatant bad practices and even basic incompetence. We can’t. Not when it a) threatens to delegitimize what the rest of us are working our asses off to build, and/or b) it is obviously going to take advantage of people who don’t know any better.
If I hadn’t gotten “mad” (maybe too strong a term) at the nonsense surrounding ROI this year, we would still be drowning in a sea of made-up equations, bullshit ROI calculators, ridiculous notions of Return on Influence, Return on Inspiration, Return on Conversations, and god knows what else. Out of that intellectual outrage came a series of posts, a number of lectures and a pretty important 101-level presentation that’s already begun to get the industry back on track. 60,000+ views on slideshare already tells me it was needed. Where would we be if I hadn’t spoken up? How many businesses and SM professionals has that presentation helped already in just a few short months?
Earlier this year, some of us raised an eyebrow when Best Buy missed the mark a bit on their job req for a Social Media position. It started a conversation about what these types of reqs should be. Best Buy took advantage of the feedback and made changes. Other companies were influenced by these discussions and made adjustments to their requirements as well.
This is no different: You have to look at the bigger picture, here. I don’t look at ISMA as being THE problem. I see ISMA as being a poster boy/girl for a trend that is becoming a problem. And this post’s purpose isn’t to fling mud at them but rather to start a conversation about the very real risk of these types of things muddying up our space. ISMA was just the unfortunate catalyst for that debate. And they have no none but themselves to blame for that. The ‘outing’ was always going to happen. This post was just the tipping point.
Look at the conversation we’re all having over this. The topics. The themes. Think about how it will evolve in the coming weeks. (Aside from not wanting to turn a blind eye to what I think are blatantly deceptive practices,) THAT’s what I’m after. Positive change in the space. Education. Dialogue. Consensus. Evolution.
These conversations matter. I can sit here day after day and write about how to do X and how to think of Y. I can write post after post after post about how to operationalize social media, how to build an online reputation management practice, how to use social media to increase transaction rates, how to handle crises online, how to measure it all properly… but the conversations that end up making the most difference start with posts like this. They start with my saying “wait, no. This is wrong,” and then talking about how to do it right. In detail. With knowledgeable people like you. 😉
And if we occasionally have to step on a few toes to expose those in the industry who try to make a quick buck at the expense of newbies, then so be it. I don’t want to be that guy, but if no one else will step up, fine. I’ll do it.
And don’t worry: I’m a pretty laid-back guy. My “anger” is more akin to intellectual outrage than actual… anger. I’m not clenching my teeth and seething at my screen when I write these posts. I’m as cool as a cucumber. 😉
Thanks for commenting, Amber. Looking forward to chatting with you again soon.
Cheers.
There are a lot of ways to help grow a new industry.
Associations/Professional Societies are funded by their members and exist to serve their members. People who don’t support the group financially may be excluded, but they also aren’t doing their part to pay to keep it operating. Associations are slow and collaborative, but over time they work well, especially on things like education and standards. (WOMMA, SMC)
Non-profits/Foundations help the community. They raise money from donors are are free to run any programs they can to further the cause. They work for the cause, not the donors. (PEW Research, EFF)
User Groups/Peer-to-peer Councils are paid for by users to help each other. Sort of like associations, but for profit. They work for the members only. (Social Media Business Council, Forum One, Conference Board)
Government Agencies are the only group that can enforce ethics and most forms of standards. People get upset that associations don’t do more on ethics, but associations don’t have any sort of legal or practical enforcement power. (FTC)
Certification Bodies are set up to provide validation and licensing. They are usually subsidiaries of one of the above structures. It’s a complicated process with huge expenses and liabilities. Real certification holds the certifying agency legally liable for those they validate. That’s why they are usually run by governments or non-profits.
Training Companies/Event Companies/Consultants sell training, information, and research. It’s a good, well-needed business. You pay for what you get. (MarketingProfs, Forrester)
But when a training company sets up a fake non-profit as a marketing gimmick, it’s sleazy. It deceives the user, and drains resources from real groups truly committed to serving the community. Sell consulting/training if you want, but don’t commit fraud by pretending to be a membership organization. (A good test: How is it funded? If the membership are free, it’s probably a fake group. Real communities need funds to pay staff and run programs.)
Disclosure: I’m a founder of several of non-profit associations (WOMMA, etc), for-profit user communities (Social Media Business Council), and sell consulting and training (GasPedal)
Thank you for that, Andy. You just shed some much needed light on a topic that wasn’t 100% to most of us (myself included).
Cheers. 🙂
terrific and helpful response for those of us who knew intuitively that this entire effort to proclaim themselves as an international association was pure Bravo Sierra.
The bottom line is that when one examines that list of individuals involved in the founding and operation of the organization one finds that:
1) anyone is allowed to join (unlike virtually any professional organization that requires members to be actively involved in their industry)
2) virtually all of the organizers aren’t known for their SM expertise but for their sales and marketing prowess – and for self-promotion
this organization just stinks.
I’m going to start using “Bravo Sierra” more. 😀
Amber says:
“I think the discussion needs to be centered not around what some organizations are doing badly…Instead, we need to be having the conversation about whether certification really IS needed in this space.”
I can’t help thinking that the social media “industry” – as merely a nascent aspect of the well-established “new media industry” – will eventually find it’s way to an organization body that will well-represent our needs and issues. It won’t be a scam, it will be crowdsourced, and will involve the thought leaders of our industry.
As I said in my blog post (the one that sparked Leigh’s great post on shark bait http://bit.ly/53z5Sz that sparked Olivier’s post here) is this:
“And goodness knows our industry needs some standards and some kind of cohesive training, but even more needed is some kind of vetting system where companies and nonprofits can make sure they are not getting scammed.”
http://bit.ly/4UjtNS
Having seen and experienced these cycles since the early 90s (with the monetization of early BBSs, the early adoption of web sites and web development, the “experiment” of online advertising, etc.), I think we (those involved in the business side) tend to have these conversations solely focused on “us.”
What I hope also comes out of this discussion is something I’ve devoted my entire new media, speaking, writing and teaching careers to:
helping “them” as in the general public, the consumers of our products and services.
From my own Day 1 in this industry, I spent at least half my time educating others about the things I was learning, writing about, analyzing and demonstrating because I firmly believed that the more educated consumer would become the better consumer.
It pains me not only to see eager, ambitious individuals who want to tap into this currently over-hyped and lucrative industry wasting time and money on sub-par training, but even moreso to come into contact with consumer after consumer who has already been burned by someone claiming to be part of “our” industry.
Scams abound and while Amber says “Caveat emptor,” I have to disagree.
We are the lucky ones to have been there, done that and are digging deep to do it right. But it is truly our RESPONSIBILITY to make sure that both those seeking knowledge and those seeking products/services are receiving good, solid training, information, etc.
A vetting system for us – ala LinkedIn referrals or even like the new Thumbtack service – could do an incredible service not just for US but for THEM.
I completely agree with you on the responsibility piece. 100%.
Sent the following email:
Hi Allison – I don’t know if you remember me from BlogHer over the summer? We sat next to each other, talked, exchanged business cards, follow each other on Twitter, etc.
I have been following this story on Twitter @thebrandbuilder and its interesting, involving and newsworthy: https://thebrandbuilder.wordpress.com
on what constitutes an “expert” and “certification” in social media.
Take a look and see what you think?
Margot Chapman
Note: Allison Blakely Editorial Producer: CNN
ps – let me know if you would like to contact her directly.
Wow. Thanks for sending the link to the proper authorities. 😉
(And I would love to have her contact information, sure. It could come in handy someday.)
As it relates to this topic, as long as Allison has my contact information, we’re good. I’ll be happy to talk with her if she finds this interesting enough to look into.
Cheers, Margot. That was very nice of you.
This doesn’t so much have to do with Mari’s organization specifically, but I am thinking very hard about some things Amber, Aliza and Olivier said, and really a little concerned about the idea of SM certification at all, when I think about being involved in new media, like Aliza, since really the early days of being able to be creative on the internet, with glorious tables and HTML. I am not certified in jack crap… I DO have a usability analyst rubber stamp & certification from taking a test, which I mainly did because it made me feel better, as the unproven (but capable, talented) UE manager of a team of people when I was at PentaSafe, a security company. No one asked me to, and I my skills have not changed one iota because I got that, except that I add it to my bio. It mainly exists for others to know about.
I will never be certified as any kind of social media something-or-other, I can pretty much (99.9%) assure you. I don’t need to be – I do work everyday that touches the web, technology, marketing, PR, copywriting, Twitter and Facebook, among many other things. So I sure as heck am not going to subject myself (learning by active experience) to competing against lesser skilled people with “certificates.”
This is not the Microsoft developer industry. Social media is wide open and means so many different freaking things (like new media did/does) that I can honestly say I don’t think any single entity is capable of offering certification any time soon unless they break SM down into meaningful chunks and not tackle the whole ball of wax. It’s not a finite universe, and may the best, most creative folks (and in many cases, that means people with marketing finesse of some type), win.
Thanks for opening my eyes about that Aliza. I was not even thinking about that before, I was more concerned with people making a false claim that others would be taken in by, and didn’t see it.
You said it better than I did, Kristi. The point to me is that social media application and strategy is sooo widely varied that I have the same issue I did with my CFRE fundraising certification back in the day; one certification can’t possibly say you’re qualified to do this globally in any situation. The context, applications, goals, and strategy are all far too dependent upon the individual business.
Where I agree with Aliza and Olivier still, though, is that we have a responsibility to help businesses understand what solid application and strategy look like. THAT is how we’re going to combat the scams: by continuing to apply social media in a proper strategic framework. By making sure our work outnumbers, outshines, out explains, and out SUCCEEDS the crap that the hacks are putting out. Our responsibility isn’t just to point out the crap, but instead, to DO THE OPPOSITE. Illustrate by doing and showing and educating. Demonstrating through positive progress.
At that point, when we continue to put out tons of good information, work, and results, the companies will be empowered with enough information to decide for themselves which camp they want to be in.
Kristi:
I started to write a similar post on Friday night then succumbed to the temptation of sleep, so I’m glad you posted such a thought provoking response.
I also have misgivings about the entire “certification” process – especially one that focuses solely on the four major current SM platforms: blogs, facebook, twitter and linkedin.
Just as it would be ridiculous to become a Certified Information Technology Programmer and claim programming guru status just because you passed a course on COBOL and FORTRAN back in the 80’s, the certification promoted by the oh-so-official-sounding ISMA does nothing more than assert that its participants have some comprehension of today’s major SM platforms.
The course doesn’t impart true expertise, which can only be gained through actual involvement and engagement. Despite your lack of accreditation, I would trust your judgment and solicit your insight on SM related issues ahead of any of the ISMA participants because you have demonstrated expertise and understanding, not because you have a lovely certificate on your wall.
As much as I value those who pursue perpetual learning, I’ve learned that many of the most thoughtful, brilliant and successful people I know do not have advanced degrees – but they are perpetually engaged, involved and immersed in new technologies that they quickly master. All without the need for self-congratulatory certificates dispensed by “experts” I’ve never heard of.
John, thanks so much for your comments. Garyvee actually comes to mind. I have started reading his book, and what shines through is his level of enthusiasm at playing the game of being in business. From a young age, he wanted to sell and earn, for some reason. He did end up going to college and I don’t know what he studied, to know if he had business courses that helped him grow the wine business. But so much of the rebranding ideas and things he has done and continues to do, come from imagination, observation and experience. And while school can teach you those things are important and maybe some techniques, there really is no substitute for real-world learning, whether on ventures of your own (how I always start) or for clients.
I’ve noticed a pattern in some contractors I’ve hired that have recently been in school. I ask for logos, and they don’t charge me much because they’re green, but I also don’t get much. When I do logo concepts, I do a ton, and push my creativity as far as it can go in the moment, because I want to do a good job for the client (whether I am being paid for as much as I’m doing or not.) That has to do with the person, not the schooling, is my point I guess. Thanks for understanding my blather!!
I can’t lie: You and Amber raise some pretty damn good points here.
So… limit it to training but not certification then?
Does that include future BA/BS and Masters programs looking to focus on Social Media management?
Just want to get this out up-front (and then I’ll get on to my point): I’m one of the of the social media teachers who focus on teaching primarily Twitter, LinkedIn, a (WordPress) blog, and Facebook. But my audience is different: absolute beginners composed of entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, and individuals. And heck, I’m not even currently practicing everything that I’m preaching – for a reason. (Look no farther than the disconnect between my LinkedIn profile and my website.)
But people I’ve taught have had results – results worth (to them) the time and money it cost them. (I gotta get that testimonials page up, lol.) So I’m comfortable with my direction and teaching strategy. So that’s what I wanted to out up-front. Now, onto my point…(whew)…
What I’m not comfortable with is the general idea of certification AT THIS STAGE OF THE GAME, for all the reasons already said much better than I could by Olivier and others in the comments.
But what the “International” certifying organization has done and what Olivier has done are both natural, expected – and somewhat desired – elements of almost any industry or group.
It’s clear to me that the social media “industry” is in the throes of the second phase of team development. Chris Heuer called it “Social Media at a crossroads” in a Social Media Club meeting we had in West Palm Beach, Florida. I consider it “Storming” – as in the well-recognized four phases of team development.
The four phases are: Forming, Storming, Norming, and Performing. (A brief summary of the stages can be found at the New York State Governor’s Office of Team Development site at http://www.goer.state.ny.us/train/onlinelearning/ftms/400s2.html).
In Forming, the group or team is named and begins it’s goal-setting, role assignments and initial actions. The natural next phase is Storming, in which the players on the team begin to establish themselves in the pecking order, regardless of title or role. It’s where the bulls start butting heads and real roles and leaders emerge. Following Storming comes Norming, in which the practices of the team and it’s workflow are starting to gel. And Performing is when the team is now clicking on all cyclinders, like, oh…the New Orleans Saints. : )
The stages are not clearly delineated, of course, and teams revert every time a new member is added.
So while I might not admire the ISMA (at all!), I’m encouraged by the perspective that the formation of such organizations, and Olivier’s and the community’s reaction to it, are perfectly natural and desired pieces of the evolution of the Social Media space/industry.
There is definitely value in teaching those that are green, valuable getting started methods. But lots of folks can offer valid training – “certifying it” seems to be the additional level that raises questions.
I hear you on not always practicing what you preach. I’m in the same boat, and reasons (or let’s face it, sometimes excuses) vary: time, money, resources, etc. sometimes prevent me from doing what I do believe is best. The great thing is, there’s always room for improvement, and with improvement usually comes better results or greater success. 😉
Kristi – Thanks for your reply. Yes, the only people I need “certifying” my training are the people who RECEIVE the training: they certify whether it works for them or not, and that’s the important metric to me. If at some point in the future I decide I need certification, it would only be because being certified could actually be a differentiator in the marketplace. It could be…to a gullible prospect. But then I’d have to whack that prospective student upside the head with the framed certificate. But, hey, I’m open. : )
You just nailed the crux of this whole discussion with your first paragraph: You train. They “certify”. That’s the difference.
Regardless of the actual content or delivery of the training you provide vs. the training they provide, what separates you from ISMA are two very distinct things:
1. You do not mislead people by packaging yourself as the “International Social Media Association.”
2. Your training is packaged as training, not a certification by a made-up governing body.
Anyone wanting to package social media training should be allowed to. Charge $2,995 for it or $10,000 or even $39.99. Let market forces decide how long you’ll be in business. It’s all good. But this is a whole different ball game. What Mari, Mark and her friends have put together is a very different animal from what you do. 😉
Thanks for the comment. I’m glad you added that perspective to this discussion.
Olivier – Thanks for responding. I take it you don’t mean, though, that Mari and Mark should not be “allowed” to create their certification program, only that – if they or others do in a similar way – they should expect some questioning and skepticism from others in the industry, such as yourself.
it’s interesting, because, from what i’ve heard, this “certification” is similar to other fields (medical, etc.) in which the single greatest factor in attaining certification is paying an entity for the privilege to tout their seal as a show of authority. one exists for the other, like using a word to define itself or a circular reference in math.
will companies look into the validity of such an organization when looking to hire one of its members – probably not; it’s existence is somehow enough.
in reality, it’s more like a club than anything.
great post & thanks for exposing garbage like this.
Excellent use of the word “garbage.” 😉
Is it still $3,000 if I am just getting you to drive up to Charlotte?
People will pay for this, unfortunately. I am looking forward to finding the first few blog badges of these certified experts. Can you imagine?
Last I checked, I drove up to Charlotte to speak at your inaugural even for free, Jason. And delivered some pretty solid content and publicity for your paying attendees. I don’t do that for very many people. I kind of expected a little less snark from you, of all people. But let me answer your real question:
I don’t have a problem with anyone charging money to deliver training. $30, $300, $3,000, $30,000. It isn’t an issue. What IS an issue is that these people a) package themselves as the “International Social Media Association,” which sounds like a real governing body but isn’t; and b) charge $3,000 not for training, but for a certification. And not just any certification, but a certification by the “International Social Media Association.”
We’re talking about deceptive practices, Jason, not the price tag of the training.
As for people displaying the ISMA badge on their blogs, more power to them. If anyone pays close to $3,000 for that little badge, they should enjoy the privilege of sharing that with the world. 😀
So, less than $3,000?
Olivier man, was definitely not jumping on you for the price comment. I respect anyone’s right to charge anyone anything they choose. I respect Mari and crew’s right to charge for their training as well.
Just having a little fun in the comments man. I suppose I forgot my emoticon. I was under the impression, snark and sarcasm were required around these parts?
For the record, I was and am very thankful for your drive up to SoFresh Charlotte. And I recommend you as a speaker often.
Cheers.
Love this, thanks for letting people know about it.
Jim
Thanks, Jim.
I noticed a tweet by Mari Smith: http://twitter.com/MariSmith/status/6404040044
She says she is listening and changes will be made. That would be the best outcome of all this conversation. The free market research contained in this single thread is, as Michael Kristof says “like gold.” We were discussing this in DM and how negative information can actually be more valuable to you than congratulatory, “I love it” type messages. It gives you something real and concrete to address, and Michael said something so valuable I wanted to share it: “Sales is all about closing doors on objections. If you can do that, you’re golden.” By listening to what’s wrong, addressing it and continuing to evolve, you will grow as a business if your offering has value. For some folks, though the info might be found free in a ton of disparate places, I think Mari’s webinar series probably do offer value and should be rebranded. I think the offering could easily be repackaged and every one of these complaints addressed. Will she do that, I don’t know. It will be interesting to see what happens next.
I won’t hold my breath, but sure. I’ll give Mari the benefit of the doubt. Let’s see if she/they do the right thing.
There’s at least $3000 worth of tremendous insight in this post and these comments alone. Can I get certified for reading them? Thanks for raising important questions and starting a great conversation, Olivier!
Consider yourself certified in reading this post and its comments. 😀
There are people asking similar things on LinkedIn. Not quite as outrageous as this – at least they offer to pay something when they get paid – but still feels somehow wrong
I should probably start scrutinizing LinkedIn too, then. I bet this kind of stuff is even more common than I realize. Scary.
One incredible thing about this discussion – and there are many – is that as it nears/surpasses 150 comments, it really calls out for the need of a more indepth online forum for this and similar brainstorming.
I’d like to share something Howard Greenstein pointed out on my blog (if you don’t know Howard, he is one of the earliest Silicon Alley-ists and a real mensch). I’m sure he would not mind.
Quoting Howard:
“Social Media Club has started a site where those educating others about Social Media (like me at NYU’s Continuing Ed program) can share and learn from each other. http://smcedu.ning.com/ is the site, and we welcome those who want to contribute to knowledge in the field.”
I don’t mention this to pull any of the momentum away from these blog comments – they are exciting, well-moderated, high-quality and respectful. LOVE that. Just want to provide a pathway to a discussion forum I just learned about and would love to hear about others.
Until then, looking forward to the insights and innovative thinking here. All of this makes me feel so connected. And I’m fired up!
Let’s just make sure we don’t break Olivier’s blog! 😉
No worries. It’s Digg-proof. 😉
Fantastic post and ensuing comments. I’ve taken the liberty of posting a link to it on my blog (http://www.socialfish.org/2009/12/certification-and-the-isma-debacle.html) – I write for the association industry and I know lots of smart people in my community have some real expertise in the area of certification (and the founding of associations in general)! A couple have responded here already and I hope to hear from more on this thorny issue.
Thanks so much for starting this discussion.
Very cool. Thank you, maddie.
Ya know, I actually think starting a social media certification program is a great idea. Most people/companies use SM tactically rather than strategically and many who do so fail.
Anyone see this video? (warning foul language to the max) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKCdexz5RQ8
Anyone can be a social media guru! But few can actually apply it to business successfully, and as part of an overall plan.
Regards,
Jim Gilbert
Anti-Social Media Expert 😉
Right. Because in order to do it well, you have to look at business objectives first, social media second. If your objective is to “sell” social media, you’ve already run aground. Too many SM “experts” trying to push square pegs into round holes.
I just read the entire thread over a latte but I can clearly see the amount of time you have spent over this topic for which care so deeply. Exposing something of this nature publicly is not a decision that comes easily to people of conscience, but it is the right thing to do. There is an incalculable amount of SM panhandling (or snake oil as referred to in several comments here) that quite obviously people fall prey to, I myself cannot get away from it. It is in my face constantly and so must it be for others.
To give the benefit of doubt to the founders and advisers of the organization is benevolent. Accreditation by an international organization that is not accredited is no different than a degree from a diploma mill.
I appreciate your factual publication of the circumstances and open forum for its further discovery, dialog and debate.
Thanks, Karla. I hope that ISMA will respond constructively in an open forum and hopefully consider what has been discussed here so far. 🙂
Yep. Got the same email. No matter of the concept, which isn’t too shabby. However, the cost? Please. Hubspot has been doing a certification for months *free* and the classes feature pretty in-depth stuff.
It’s probably a bit too early to begin touting *very* expensive courses that result in a certification.
We all know there’s less static about social media than its fluidity.
Some training programs may actually be well worth $3,000. It depends what you ant to get out of them and how good they are.
I just don’t think that this one is likely to be one of them – with or without the lure of a “certification.”
Oops – it wasn’t THIS email you showed above, but it was a notification of some sort about the class. Sorry, but I scoffed. Too early. S/M too fluid – more and more changes will be coming, and there’ll be heck to pay when people find they may not know all they need to know.
Well I just saved $3,000! Wow this is thought leadership and community training and certification supercharged! I have read this whole this and thank everyone for sharing their perspectives and real opinions!
Look forward to seeing what comes out of this! Oh Olivier can I get you to sign my certificate signed and sent to me? Then I can put on my resume and show it in my cube!
Thanks everyone and especially Olivier for taking this to the community of real world social media do’ers! This shows everyone how it truly works as an adult discussion and sharing thoughts in a calm fashion!
@keithprivette
I authorize you to forge my signature, but just this one time. 😀
Olivier:
The problem with coming late to a party is that so many positions have already been taken, and so many threads started that a coherent response to all or even most of them is a little tough to make.
Let me start with the disclosure that I am a principal in the Social Media Marketing Institute, and we offer a designation called the Certified Social Media Marketer. We are an educational organization built to serve the needs of business people and professionals that want to participate in social media marketing in a responsible, ethical and effective manner.
In order to earn the right to use the CSM designation, participants have to:
1. Take an intensive 2 day course with live instructors
2. Complete an exam at the end of the course
3. Maintain membership in the Institute and subscribe to our standards of practice and code of ethics.
At the end of our 2 day course, the participants have achieved a basic level of “conscious competence” and an understanding of permission based marketing. They have learned important concepts from books like The ClueTrain Manifesto, The Long Tail, Trust Agents, The Whuffie Factor, The Digital Handshake and others, understand the concepts of social capital, social objects, social contracts, social proof, copyright, plagiarism and fair use, and the ethical obligations of social media participation. They are taught the basics of on-line reputation management, monitoring, and measurement. They are then taught to apply these principles in various venues, and provided with information to help them decide which venues are most appropriate for them to participate in.
The course is designed to help the participants become trusted and valued members of their communities, and to recognize the value of (as @missrogue mentions in her book) “turning the bullhorn around” and listening to the communities they want to serve.
We chose to offer a designation because in many industries, (including real estate, where I spent most of my adult life) people value the recognition that they derive from finishing a course of study, completing the exam, and joining a group with common goals. We hope to create a sense of community in the people who take the course, and for that community to share their trials and tribulations and successes. We do not anticipate that anyone (especially our members) think that any course or certification is a reason to stop learning or believe that you know all that there is to know about any subject.
The word certification is a lightning rod in the social media world, and as people run to fill the educational vacuum I see a lot of “snake oil” peddlers following them. My favorite to date was the social media expert (with no twitter account or blog) who suggested to his audience that the secret to success in social media was to spend 12 minutes a day utilizing social media tools (sort of like the 7 minute abs premise from “There’s Something about Mary” – “Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk”). The issue there and the issue with the ISMA or any other course is about credibility and quality. And it needs to be the consumer who makes the decision about whether there is value in the course or not. I haven’t seen any big discussions around the Inbound Marketing Professional Certification offered by Hubspot, or the implications it might have to social media marketers, so I have to assume that the certification is less of an issue than the manner in which ISMA approached the market, the quality of their material, and the implied status of the organization
I don’t think the issue of Certification for the professional marketer is really a big deal. As a business owner, when I hire someone, their demonstrated knowledge and examples of their work products are much more important to me than their Certifications or degrees. In fact the worst marketing person I ever hired in my company had the best educational pedigree. Education without effective implementation is worthless, and a certification without effective implementation is no better. I do believe that there is room for different social media education programs from a variety of providers aimed at a variety of audiences however.
Enough has been said (and very well said indeed) about the inferences of the ISMA name and the issues of their Certification. I have no need to add more, and ask only that every course and designation not be tarred by the same brush. Its not about the designation or certification anyway, it is (or a least it should be) about the educational content and experience. We addressed our course as an adult education course which needed to provide the student with a quality experience, good information, and effective take- aways. Having been involved in adult education for over 30 years, I am comfortable that we have accomplished that.
In any case, thank you for addressing the issue intelligently (though with passion), for being so articulate in your reasoning, and be willing to listen and respond to every comment made.
Right. For me, the idea of a certification isn’t the big issue here. Tactics, packaging and execution are.
I can’t vouch for your program, but it at least seems grounded in some semblance of process. I recognize a framework I can at least put some trust into. And you aren’t a Social Media-specific organization. So already, you seemto be a few giant steps ahead in terms of legitimacy, process, and delivery.
I personally would LOVE for the AMA (American Management Association) to start working with some of us to build a program that focuses on social media management – not just in terms of marketing, but all of its operational applications.
Note that I didn’t suggest that the AMA should go off on its own and create a program in a basement or a lab somewhere, but rather that it should work with professionals to develop, deliver, and continue to improve it over time.
As long as the organization is reputable, I can assume that they will take such a certification program very seriously. It doesn’t have to be perfect or complete. It just has to be good.
Organizations with long standing reputations have a lot to lose if they screw up. I like that. It forces them to stay on top of their game. Organizations with nothing to lose can afford to make a quick buck and vanish into thin air after a few months.
😉 Thanks for the comment (and the time you put into it).
Olivier — glad we connected on Twitter; otherwise I would have never come across your post.
Here are my thoughts in a not-so-concise-and-coherent-manner:
– branding oneself on twitter is MUCH different then helping a brand (big/small) build true connections on the social web; twitter is temporary (just a tool) and finite. Relationship building, if done right, can be infinite (at least a lifetime)
– you (not you personally) can’t teach/certify/preach/counsel/coach someone on a topic unless you yourself have been in the trenches and (behind the firewall) and understand the dynamic of organizational culture. I certainly don’t mean that you have to work for a brand as an employee. Consultants and agencies deal with it too…
– and i don’t entirely agree that there needs to be a certification process for this space but i guess I could be convinced otherwise; as long as it’s not facilitated by an agency who is trying to monetize the distribution list either
– social media experts suck and when I see that in a bio; i immediately unfollow and it leaves a sour taste in my mouth
– the folks who put on this cert program are just trying to monetize their micro communities. Would there be some value to those follow them? Perhaps. But it’s nothing that anyone can’t learn by simply participating.
What I am also wondering about this curriculum is that once completed, will companies flock to the graduates because they learned something that would add value to their organizations. Prolly not.
I also ranted about this very subject earlier this year, if interested.
http://www.britopian.com/2009/01/16/sorry-but-you-arent-a-social-media-expert-until-you-fail/
“You can’t teach/certify/preach/counsel/coach someone on a topic unless you yourself have been in the trenches and (behind the firewall) and understand the dynamic of organizational culture.”
Exactly.
Your other points are also excellent, but that one resonates with me the most because it’s at the heart of this thing.
Who gives a rat’s patoot if you know how to create and optimize a Facebook fan page? What a true certification (assuming it’s even a good idea) should deal with is so much more operationally complex than the basics of using a tool that changes every six months.
Wow. Cool discussion.
a) certification programs will certainly be established because there is money to be made. It’s fruitless to discuss whether they’re needed or not. Of course they will occur. In fact there were will be lots of them.
b) I recommend that you to look into some of the recent cases on social media commentary and libel. Just FYI.
Cheers, Mark
Mark, can you point us to any links about such cases?
Here is a post I wrote about a libel case that appears to have legal legs. I think the breach in this case is much less severe than the language and impact of this blog. This information is not contained in the case below, but I later learned this Facebook post was only up for four hours and the case may be heading to court:
Steve Farnsworth wrote a follow-up piece addressing the PR implications. Not a legal view, but still a relevant, interesting read:
http://businessesgrow.com/2009/10/07/the-end-of-pr-as-we-know-it/
The lesson is, we are all publishers now and you are open to libel suits whether you are a trained “journalist” or not.
I have mixed feelings about making any comment here, but I feel moved to say firstly that I have met Mari Smith and have the greatest respect for her, her integrity and her generosity of spirit. Also, a week or so ago I attended two webinars run by her about Facebook, over two days, and was amazed at how much content and practical advice she provided in the time available.
Much has been written here about certification. Having worked as a volunteer over several years on certification for coaches I have some knowledge of the challenges of providing a robust and defensible system of certification.
One of the values I see in going through a process of certification is not dissimilar to the process of a university degree course, the acquiring of frameworks of thought and action, the testing of knowledge and skills. If nothing else, that can surely help in having a higher level of confidence in being of service to clients. I fear some commenters here would see the taking of any current course labelled “certification” as proof of not being a proper expert even in inverted commas, so maybe it’s rash of me to mention, in the interest of transparency perhaps, or is is mere bravado, that I’m considering taking such a course with Social Media Academy?
Des, Thanks for your comment.
For argument’s sake, let’s remove Mari and Mark from the equation. This post isn’t meant to be a personal attack against either one. Let’s look at the bigger picture here:
Training packaged as training is completely acceptable, as is training offered by a company, consulting group or “coach.” And even the price tag here is fine if someone wants to spend $3K on a series of webinars put together and delivered by… whomever. It doesn’t matter how good or lousy it is.
At issue here is the fact that a) the folks behind ISMA have packaged and positioned their company as an international association and certifying body. And b) they sell a training course packaged as a certification program offered under the “umbrella” of said association.
I am sure that you see the difference between the two scenarios.
Second – this space is complex and already wide-reaching. A very real community of professionals exists at every level of the business world – from community managers and reputation management professionals to senior executives developing and managing complex integrated social media programs. (Not to mention the lecturers and thought leaders, some of whom I mentioned by name in the post.) ISMA has apparently either completely ignored this community (without which any legitimacy as a representative body is impossible) or failed to get buy-in from them. At all. This is a very serious red flag. A show-stopper, in fact. Something like this would have caused anyone with hopes of creating a legitimate Social Media association to stop, regroup, and reboot.
This point alone should have given Mari and Mark pause. Instead, ISMA decided to carry on and create a certification program, apparently developed and delivered by disjointed third-parties, selected… I’m not sure how, exactly. I didn’t know this until ISMA reached out to me last week.
I was going to let it all slide until I received that email and realized that at least some of the content of this $3,000 certification was being put together by “guest” coaches. With very little if any oversight. And with absolutely no discussion about the program as a whole.
So Des, putting aside Mari’s reputation, personality, integrity and all of that good stuff (and if we can divorce one from the other, great) what ISMA – as an organization (if we can call it that) is doing is at best terribly shoddy and mismanaged, and at worst purposely deceptive and grossly negligent. I’m not sure which, and I don’t care to speculate. Either way, this thing is a complete disaster and a black mark on all of Social Media.
So… training by Mari = perfectly fine. “Certification” by a bogus organization = troubling.
Thanks for the comment. 😉
This thread is amazing… wow!
Olivier, do you really believe there needs to be a true (and well established) governing body, board, organization of any kind for ‘social media’?
I currently see the singular use of the term ‘social media’ as more of a fetish. Soon enough it will simply just be another arm of integrated marketing, in my opinion.
I agree that best practices and such are important for any marketing tactic. But again… is it time that we start assimilating social media to the whole bag of tricks or do believe that it transcends integrated marketing?
Whether I think it’s a good idea or not is kind of academic. I could argue for or against, honestly. Is it needed? Yes. No. Maybe.
What would the purpose be? How would it be managed? What would it actually do? Those are the tough questions.
What it could accomplish are a number of things:
1. Bring social media professionals together.
2. Help non social media professionals better understand how to incorporate social media into their professional fields by providing resources and standards on and for best practices, legal considerations, operational insight, etc.
3. Provide training. (not necessarily certifications.)
4. Help combat fraud and deceptive practices.
One thought I would like to bring up again about social media integration: Though marketing is a huge piece here, understand that Social Media also needs to be integrated into other business functions as well: customer service/support, IT, internal communications, collaboration, business intelligence, etc.
So there’s a much bigger “business management” picture here than integrate marketing. 😉 We need to think of how IT professionals need to be trained when it comes to Social Media. Call center staff. Recruiters and HR managers. Project managers. Data analysts. Product specialists. Manufacturing engineers. Every single employee at every level, really.
And not just in terms of how they will use Social Media during business hours, but also how their personal use of social technologies can impact their organizations. There are risks and opportunities there that require awareness and some degree of basic training that doesn’t exist today.
Thanks for the comment and the astute questions, Scott. Much appreciated.
Then how about “SoMMA” (Social Media Marketing Association” based on the WOMMA model?
In reading the rest of the comment thread, I can find many gems in this conversation:
– Andy’s good overview of different types of entities that can help grow an industry,
– Amber’s call to sharing more about the work people are putting towards execution,
– Chris Heuer’s information on the work of the SMC,
– Beth’s references to the honest roots of integrated PR and marketing,
– Kristin’s bridging conversations between people and media,
– Patrick’s points on the value to businesses of teaching and training,
– Aliza’s desire to lead the charge on training and setting the record straight,
– John’s ideas on direct experience,
And many other voices here and on Twitter.
To me the greatest benefit of the discussion, aside from shedding light on a topic that is of great importance to the business community, is the ability to have a global and informed discussion in the first place.
I agree with Armano, who said on Twitter that this might become a good case study on harnessing knowledge flows. I might have added some color to David’s remarks after spending some time with Mr. John Hagel and Deloitte’s Center for the Edge work on Shift Index.
Knowledge flows are very powerful and it’s exciting to be part of a community that engages in those kinds of exchanges. Thank you all for the stimulating and enlightening conversation.
Good for you, Valeria. That was a very thoughtful comment encompassing the whole of this thing.
Curious, do you know if there is a return policy for me to get my $3,000 back?
There is. ISMA has a 30-day money back guarantee listed on their site.
I’m not sure how to claim it though. I assume it involves returning the certificate and the .jpg of the badge?
I’m happy of being a Certified Social Media Consultant/Strategist, from the Social Media Academy, supporting companies, like Oracle, strategically to become more “Social”. But I agree that are many “Consultants” that is not even worth commenting.
Here are + thoughts: http://www.mariopaladini.com/?p=14
Best, Mario
http://xeesm.com/mariopaladini
Thanks, Mario.
Thank you for the detailed explanation of the problems with certification in Social Media in general, and this program in particular.
(not sure I’d like to be called the Pied Piper of anything, given the traditional results;-)
Well… yeah. It isn’t traditionally the kind of reference I would qualify as a compliment. 😀
Sorry Olivier but I can’t take much more of this crap. These doofus’s don’t understand that people’s lives are on the line here. They prey on people’s desperation. For all practical purposes, it’s as close to a Madoff scheme as you can get without actually being there.
And to offer up the ‘coaching industry’ as an good example is an exercise in anti-intellectual BS.
Real estate? That’s different in that it’s a legally demanded certification regarding knowledge of agency and property law.
Who certifies the certifiers in this case?
In 27 years of coaching & consulting and hundreds of clients, I have never been asked by anyone for any certification. People ante up $3,000 because they are insecure in their own self-worth when it comes to believing they have any value to offer clients.
This is about greed and filling the money vacuum in the ‘social media’ business.
I understand and appreciate the character needed to challenge such behavior and I applaud you for it. I just wonder where the other ‘big name’ voices are?
The other big voices are being cautious, I think. But you know, Andy Sernovitz, David Armano, Amber Naslund, Valeria Maltoni and a few others have commented here. So it’s a start.
I’m not sure that “policing” the space has been a huge priority for many of the “big names”. It occasionally happens though, so don’t count them out yet. 😉
I completely feel your outrage when it comes to… what essentially boils down to certification pyramid schemes. I’m not saying that what ISMA is doing qualifies as such, but something does seem very off about the whole thing.
Olivier always delivers fabulous content, insight and brilliance. A real SM genius who isn’t afraid to walk the lie to deliver truthful feed back! This is a well written response Olivier to what seems to me as another group of hopefuls trying to make a quick buck at the expense of gullible people, under the heading Social Media Guru’s. Oh come on Mark and Mari! And please; can we just get past the ‘limiting’ title already!!
Thank you. I think I ask legitimate questions here. As do all of you.
Olivier et al,
Per our Twitter exchanges, here is my initial response to your points in this post:
First, I intentionally held off adding a comment here as I felt the tone of the post (including title and image) were unnecessarily harsh. For those who know me well, my natural disposition is extremely positive – even when dealing with challenging situations. But I did not wish to be drawn into what initially appeared to be a destructive discussion as opposed to constructive.
I believe constructive feedback is one of the most profound ways to grow as a human being and as an organization. But, I feel strongly about doing so in a civil, respectful and professional manner. The very nature of social media is transparent – and, as leaders, surely we can conduct ourselves with good manners.
1) The history behind the birth of ISMA:
What’s missing is the backstory which I’ll elaborate: I first entered the SM world around May 2007, when I received an invitation to participate on the alpha team of a Facebook app. My career took a quantum leap as my combined background of relationship coaching and internet marketing merged and became one.
By around December 2007, the SM world started to buzz with opportunists that made me uncomfortable. Namely, those who promised ways to “get rich quick” overnight with xyz Facebook or Twitter system. Such programs are the antithesis to my style.
My motto is “relationships first, business second.” I will not sacrifice my personal values and integrity for “making a quick buck.” (Quite possibly, if I really wanted to, I could’ve “cashed out” of the SM industry some time ago if I was one of those types – but I care too much about people and making a difference in the world to do so).
So, with these opportunists, I quickly saw there would be a need for leaders and organizations in the SM industry who would set standards, best practices, proper etiquette, provide quality education and training. I envisioned a global association with, yes, certification trainings.
However, the demand for my own SM speaking, training and consulting became so high, I did not have time remaining to launch such an association… nor did I know much about creating successful associations. I wanted to wait and do it right.
Fast forward to April 2009. A mentor of mine kept encouraging me to take imperfect action vs. no action. I went for it. I launched a six-month social media training program aimed at potential SM consultants, speakers, trainers and coaches to teach them what I’d learned and practiced myself for two years prior. My goal with this program was to create a cadre of professionals I could confidently refer business to and to support them in building their own sustainable social media related business in their respective niches, e.g. real estate.
I entitled the program “Mentor with Mari” and had over 140 applicants. I was astounded at the response. Turned out much of my community had been waiting for me to launch such a program.
At the end of the six-month course, graduates would then receive a designation of Certified Social Media Specialist/Strategist and become founding members of the new social media association. Ultimately, 35 students graduated from around the US, Canada, Italy and South Africa.
Mark Eldridge was one of my students – he’d come to check out me and my training. And, it transpired he and his family have decades of experience in launching and running successful industry associations. As my MWM program progressed, Mark and I began to discuss the opportunity to collaborate and finally birth the social media association.
We were both aware of similar organizations being launched, and other certification courses, etc. and felt the timing was right to move forward in October. We share similar core values, ethics and standards.
Mark also has extensive experience in the SEO world and had seen many bandwagon-hoppers in that industry too and was most disconcerted. Our shared goal for starting ISMA is to set a standard for quality education and quality industry information.
2) To certify or not:
There will always be vastly differing opinions on this sensitive topic. My background includes working and training in the coaching industry. I am a Certified Relationship Coach – from the Relationship Coaching Institute. Nobody questions the certification, it just is. It means I underwent a subject-matter training course and demonstrated core competencies – similar to attaining a college degree.
Mark Schaefer makes the point above that there will be lots of certification courses and it’s fruitless to discuss whether they’re needed or not. Agreed. There already are such courses springing up regularly as many of the commenters here indicate.
For the record, as part of the developmental path for ISMA students, providing continuing niche/specialty education and more advanced courses is part of our vision.
However, certification is not necessarily the main issue of this entire discussion here. What seems to be getting called into question is the execution of the ISMA launch, our first training program, and our intent.
3) Our current board of advisors:
Olivier brings up valid points about the lack of widely-known, well-respected names specifically in the social media industry and/or social media directors/strategists from major brands on our board.
ISMA’s Board of Advisors is by no means complete. And, yes, holding off on the official launch of ISMA until additional members joined may have made more sense in retrospect.
I will say I am honored at the braintrust who’ve joined us thus far. (For the record, Vishen Lakhiani is based in Malaysia with a worldwide staff of 50+). Plus, with several countries represented via our founding members – along with Australia and Sweden represented in the current program iteration – our vision is most certainly that of a global organization… just as social media is global.
Sure, we have a long way to go.
4) Frameworks for best practices:
Olivier’s suggestion #3 – to develop the frameworks/foundation piece first prior to launching our certification course – has merit. ISMA is in the initial stages of growth and we will undoubtedly be evolving over time. We did feel the course was essentially a second iteration – a follow on from my initial popular Mentor With Mari program.
But, as has been my vision and passion for the past couple of years, I am a stickler for best practices. I am emphatic about my care of people – everyone, from all walks of life.
It is my fundamental believe that all people are good at the core, regardless of their exterior behavior. And, I feel it’s important to do the right thing, always. Which is why I’m coming here to contribute to this discussion.
Going forward, we will be adding to our frameworks.
In conclusion for now, it is clear that the topic of social media training, certification, associations and leadership is one that is ripe for contribution right now. Ripe for crowdsourcing, in fact.
And, I do firmly believe there is room on this planet of 6.5 billion people for multiple organizations to meet multiple needs in the growing social media industry. My main hope is that any and all of these organizations are reputable, substantive and enduring.
…this is only the beginning.
Thanks for your comment, Mari.
I’m sorry, but “Imperfect action” doesn’t quite cut it, does it.
You cannot state that you are “a stickler for best practices,” and then completely ignore them altogether – and hide behind “imperfect action vs. no action?” (More on that in a minute.)
With all due respect, your “imperfect action” argument is surprisingly… thin. I expected something a little more fleshed out, given how much your reputation in this space might be at stake with this thing.
Before I go on, I want to clarify a few things that many people who are following this stream may not be aware of if they missed our conversation on Twitter Sunday evening.
Based on what you explained to me on Twitter Sunday evening, your board of advisors has nothing to do with the development, validation or delivery of your content. http://twitter.com/MariSmith/statuses/6424294743 Which is… strange. Which means that you and Mark alone are left to a) develop or b) approve content with the help of mysterious “outside experts” as opposed to, say, your board of advisors. http://twitter.com/MariSmith/status/6423967395.
Even if an earlier statement you made – in response to a question about your specific role within ISMA – seemed to imply that content creation, validation and delivery was a “shared” responsibility: http://twitter.com/MariSmith/statuses/6423654610 . But I’ll let that slide for now. It seems that you meant to say that everything about ISMA’s “Certification” is shared creation between you and Mark rather than you, Mark and your board of advisors. So. You and Mark then. You two are developing this certification thing.
You also stated that about half of the certification program’s content was being developed with the input of outside experts http://twitter.com/MariSmith/status/6424162688 … though there seemed to be a vagueness about how the content was actually being created or who these experts are. (There is a big gap between your “creating the outline” of the program and what you qualified as “input from outside experts.” http://twitter.com/MariSmith/status/6423967395 Pretty big gap, in fact.
Evidently, judging from the email you guys sent me last week about creating and delivering content for what I assume is one of your modules, I think we can safely infer that “outside experts” do a lot more than just provide “input.” Yes? They are, in fact, creating it outright. And delivering it. All on their own. Without much editing or oversight from either you, Mark, or your board of advisors.
So let’s look at what ISMA’s process in developing a certification looks like from the outside:
1. You (Mari) are creating the outline for the program.
2. You and Mark (who just graduated from your social media course) are the sole arbiters of what goes into this certification program.
3. Your “board of advisors” plays absolutely no part whatsoever in the certification program’s development, content creation, validation or delivery. (This is a pretty important point that takes time to fully digest, especially given your earlier emphasis on your board’s importance to ISMA.)
4. You are creating about half of the content yourself. Correct me if I am wrong: Your background before “Mentor with Mari” was… being a personal relationship coach, correct? And your introduction to Social Media was in… 2007? Is that right?
5. The other half is being created by “outside experts.” (Which, based on the email “invitations” a number of us received, is much more than just “input,” as you phrased it.) http://twitter.com/MariSmith/status/6424162688
6. Your process for validating said outside experts is, according to the email ISMA sent me: “Both Mari and Mark have expressed that you are absolutely amazing. You bring so much knowledge with such excitement to the social media world. ISMA would love to invite you to be on our Certification Training Webinar on Thursday, December 10th from 2pm – 3:30pm est. as our featured guest trainer!”
7. Your process for validating the content of the modules you are outsourcing to “outside experts” is, according to the email ISMA sent me: “You will need to provide a Power Point Presentation and send it to us so we can upload it onto our server and a short bio and your picture.”
8. The way in which you “recruit” at least some of your “outside experts” seems to be (again, according to ISMA’s email):
“For your benefit, you will be able to get great exposure and be known as the “Obvious Expect” within your niche!” (I think you guys meant “expert,” not “expect.”)
To make sure your “outside experts” didn’t miss it the first time, here it is again:
“You can promote yourself and gain more exposure for you and your business, however we ask that you refrain from pitching anything.”
9. Aside from the elements you carried over from “Mentor with Mari,” you and Mark decided to put together this certification course in October. We’re just now in the first week of December.
So… barely a month after deciding to create a $2,995 certification program mostly by yourself, without recruiting the help of your illustrious and very capable board of advisors (for whatever reason) you and Mark (your newly “certified” student) are confident that you are creating a legitimate and thoroughly fleshed-out certification program for this industry?
As the “International Social Media Association?”
Seriously?
Your words: “I’m a stickler for best practices.”
Your words again: “I believe in leading by example.” http://twitter.com/MariSmith/status/6423406263
Do you see the problem with all of this, Mari?
While you ponder that question, let me double-check my math since you and Mark are co-creating this content: Mark starts taking a course from you in April of 2009. A 6 month course, as you stated. Let’s count out the months:
April (1)
May (2)
June (3)
July (4)
August (5)
September (6)
So Mark graduated from your course in… September? And in October, just a few weeks later, you decided to create a certification program and co-create the outline with him? http://twitter.com/MariSmith/status/6423967395
Because (aside from his expertise in creating ISMA for you, which I completely understand) of ALL of the people working in the Social Media space, HE is the most likely expert in terms of building a legitimate framework for this certification? Am I getting this right?
Why not at least tap your own board of advisors for help with content? Suggestions, even. Why? http://twitter.com/MariSmith/statuses/6424294743
Why not reach out to people like me or Mack Collier or Chris Penn or Beth Harte or the fairly large number of legitimate voices in this space to help you define the scope of your certification program? People who would have helped you had you asked and had you taken any of this seriously?
Why the hurry? (Especially with Mark onboard, somewhere in his vast association experience, surely the notion that certifications take time to develop, that a lot of ground work has to be laid out before that phase is even an option surely must have come up, no?)
Your answer to all of this is that “imperfect action is preferable to no action?” You can’t be serious.
I want to go back to two statements you made early on in your comment:
“The SM world started to buzz with opportunists that made me uncomfortable. Namely, those who promised ways to “get rich quick” overnight with xyz Facebook or Twitter system. Such programs are the antithesis to my style.”
And also:
“I will not sacrifice my personal values and integrity for ‘making a quick buck.’”
Fair enough.
Explain to me how exactly your program, which you co-created with someone with little experience in Social Media management (having graduated from your course less than 3 months ago), that your advisory board had no part in developing or even validating, whose content is in great part outsourced to anyone willing to work in exchange for “exposure” and the promise of being perceived as an “expert in their niche” differ from one of the programs you call out at the start of your comment?
This $2,995 “certification” program not yet fully developed because many of the “outside experts” you’ve reached out to declined to be associated with it, as I did last week: How is it different from those certification schemes you object to?
Do you see how someone on the outside might find all of this a little… suspect?
Where are the best practices you mentioned, Mari? Where is your organization’s credibility in all of this? From a process standpoint, that is? From a thought leadership standpoint, even?
I’m not trying to undermine you or your organization, Mari. I am just asking simple questions about the process by which you arrived at marketing a $2,995 “social media specialist” certification through an organization you named the “International Social Media Association,” whose board of advisors, by your own admission, plays no part whatsoever in even developing.
Is this not simply a $2,995 version of “Mentor with Mari” with a few “guest trainers” added into the mix?
Are you starting to see how this looks from the outside?
I am late to this party, and yet we are all quite early to the “Social Media certification” party. I finally finished reading the blog and comments, dozens of which are quite insightful, and wondered whether I had anything truly new to offer here.
I decided to post here for several reasons. I have great respect for both Olivier Blanchard and Mari Smith, as well as the many commenters before me. But notably, I delivered webinar content for the ISMA’s certification program last week. (Olivier, your comments about their “guest trainers” weren’t very nice, but I’m honestly not the least bit upset about that).
When Mari Smith, a businesswoman and social media practitioner I respect, asked me to deliver a webinar for the ISMA, perhaps I should have questioned the body more closely, as Olivier did. I didn’t love the sound of “International Social Media Association”, but I have been clamoring for and privately discussing a governing social media trade org for awhile. I am a proud, active member of the Word of Mouth Marketing Association, a trade org which is probably the closest thing to a governing body for the growing “social media industry” but whose focus on offline word of mouth has imho kept it from truly realizing its potential. Sernovitz’s Social Media Council is great but brand-focused and currently doesn’t allow agencies.
My audience for ISMA, as I understood it, was would-be-social-media-consultants – and I delivered a webinar on selling the value of social media to corporations – sharing best practices and case studies of companies doing a great job in the space such as Zappos, Comcast, & JetBlue. I hope the webinar gave its recipients fodder for thought, reason to examine more, and continue learning. I know 50% of my day as CEO of theKbuzz each day is spent educating and re-educating myself.
Everyone, including Mari, who hosted me, and the class, was friendly, inquisitive, and engaging.
I am not writing this to defend the ISMA. Besides Mari, who I feel like I know but I have never met, I know none of the people involved. But I do think:
1) The market will decide whether the ISMA will work or not, how it will evolve, and how it can and will “certify.” Can they legally call themselves “International” and award a certificate? Probably. Can Olivier and others call them out? Of course. Ultimately, though, if people want to pay $3,000, or $300, or $30,000 to any organization for training and/or certification, they can and will. Only time will tell of course, if they will find value in their experience, and encourage others to do it, or not.
2) Value is in the eyes of the beholder. I went to Boston University. I happened to be on a scholarship, but do I think the education and certification I received from BU was worth $120,000? Not for a minute. Would I ever pay to send my kids there? Almost definitely not. But many do, and will continue too. And that’s okay too.
3) Your blog post has clearly inspired a lot of thought leadership on these much-needed issues, as scores of leaders such as Andy Sernovitz, Aliza Sherman, Amber Naslund, etc. have commented in just a few days. The truth is, in the long run, this discussion will help all of us, including Mari and the ISMA, better frame future discussions on best practices for those calling themselves social-media-anything. Thank you for that.
Thanks for your comment, Dave.
I hope that people who spend close to $3,000 for this “certification” get their money’s worth.
To my point, Olivier, that’s up to those individuals. I do hope so- but by the tone of your comments – I don’t think you do. Sarcastic, are we?
Great comments and discussion by so many people. Building on the bedrock of great points made here, two things jump out at me:
1. The rapidly evolving nature of social media will make any effort at certification extremely challenging
2. “Social media Darwinism” is one force that will help guide solid thinkers and good training programs to the top in the end
CERTIFYING A MOVING TARGET
What social media “is” today is not what it was a year or even six months ago. Given the pace of change, any certification program worth its salt would need to have people re-certify very regularly. And this even assumes one could come up with objective, testable social media knowledge at any given point in time. These are really difficult questions that put huge burdens on people who try to create certification programs, thought leaders or otherwise.
SOCIAL MEDIA DARWINISM
Of all the people you respect most in the domain of social media, are they certified, and is their thinking any less valuable if not? For the people who are “certified,” do you trust their judgment more as a result? I suspect the answers to both questions would be “No.”
People who want to act as social media consultants for businesses will rarely be asked to pull out their “social media expert” decoder rings. Instead, they’ll be judged by the quality of their thought and their ability to deliver results over time. Real businesses won’t tolerate BS or a lack of results for very long.
The social media “experts” and consultants who are worth their salt will thrive, and those that aren’t, won’t. This goes for those that would train and certify, and those seeking the knowledge and skills. Part of that survival process is being able to withstand open discussion in a dynamic and engaged community and forum like the one represented here.
Thanks to all the participants in this debate, and again to Olivier for getting the ball rolling. 🙂
Wow. Never before have I seen a group of normally sensible people sucked into such a painful display of “me-too”-ism. Love ya, Olivier, but this post was mean-spirited at best. Just because you don’t know Mari or whomever else she’s involved with doesn’t mean she’s not qualified to teach or have her own organization. The fact that she reached out to you should show you she at least knows good talent when she sees it.
She asked me to do one of her webinars, too. I’m going to because there are some great people willing to learn that will be in the audience. Yeah, someone is making a buck off it, but if that were the judging point, we should never speak at any conference, ever.
And someone is going to come up with Accreditation at some point, my friend. If you had been the first, you probably would have gotten criticized, too.
It’s okay to be critical, but your post was venomous, my friend. And that’s coming from someone who doesn’t know Mari or Mark well, either. I tried to look at it objectively and still though it was unfair. Unfortunately a lot of good people just took your opinion for gospel and agreed. Too bad.
Oh Jason. Tell me it isn’t so. You’re going along with this?
My opinion, Jason, is not gospel. No one has to agree with me. Yet it seems that most of the folks commenting here this time around have chosen NOT to disagree with me. Not to implore the wisdom of crowds here, but these are hardly all “followers” of mine. At least half of the people who have commented here aren’t regulars. And between you and me, it’s a bit insulting to them for you to imply that they don’t have minds of their own. Most of the comments here are remarkably well constructed. These are smart people with critical minds, Jason, not lemmings hanging on my every word.
What I bring up in this post is merely an echo of a growing number of conversations over this thing that started two weeks ago, from what I can tell. My post isn’t venomous at all. I can write venomous posts; this isn’t one of them. Not by a longshot. Aside from the fact that I raise legitimate questions about the organization’s branding, the positioning of the “certification” and the process (or absence thereof) by which its content came about, there is nothing venomous about this post. Nothing.
If you don’t see the problem with this, I don’t know what to tell you. Be a part of it if it floats your boat. To each his own. I won’t think any less of you personally for being a guest trainer for this “certification” program. Mari is your friend, so fine. Stand by her and her organization. That’s admirable in a way. But don’t make this into something it isn’t: some kind of venomous attack against Mari and Mark. That’s just a load of BS.
My questions and concerns – no, OUR questions and concerns – over the handling of this thing are perfectly legitimate and not at all mean-spirited. Quite the contrary. Many of us are concerned about the welfare of people who might be led to believe that a $2,995 “certification” will somehow prepare them to be social media professionals and perhaps even get a job in the industry. (Content that is otherwise readily available for free, by the way.) And that something that sounds very official, like the “International Social Media Association,” might be more than what it really is. People who may not realize that ISMA’s board of directors plays no part in the development or validation of the program, or that much of it is being pieced together by “guest trainers” paid in… “exposure” and validation. Surely, if you would just put your friendship with Mari aside for a minute, you might see how all of this warrants a bit of scrutiny, don’t you think? Given how easily vulnerable people can be convinced to part with their money in exchange for, say, a certification recognized by no one and put together in just a few months by two people and a few mysterious “experts”? Isn’t it fair, even responsible, to raise a few questions and get a conversation going? Objectively speaking?
One more thing: Did it occur to you that perhaps all of these “normally sensible people” might be sensible now, as they usually are? That perhaps you, not them, might be looking at this from a skewed angle? Because of your friendship with Mari? Do you think that perhaps you can’t really take a step back and look at this objectively?
Statistically speaking, even? The odds of everyone here being wrong at the same time vs. well… you? Just a thought, Jason.
Yep. I’m wrong. You and your circle of social media friends are right.
Just seems like you’re saying, “No one I know was involved with this thing so it can’t be valid.” It was also apparent in reading that you didn’t do a great deal of research into Mari and Mark’s backgrounds to see if they were even qualified to teach social media. I don’t know either of them well, despite your claims Mari and I are friends (said about five words to her in my life), but I know they’ve been in the space for a while and are both speakers of a certain level of credibility and respect in the industry.
That aside, I don’t necessarily disagree with your notions that accreditation in social media isn’t something we can even begin to sell at this point, I’m not going to attack someone trying to do it because A) It’ll happen sooner or later B) Everyone has to make a buck somehow and C) If their stuff sucks, it’ll prove out to suck.
The whole notion of attacking other social media thinkers just makes me sick to my stomach. No one is qualified to call themselves an expert and, thus, no one is qualified to bitch about others calling themselves an expert. I think it’s self-serving, childish and unnecessary.
Jason! Did you seriously just call every person on this thread that does not agree with ISMA’s direction, and therefore shares some semblance of agreement with Olivier, a lemming??? There are people sharing quite independent thinking, with years upon years of some sort of marketing/pr/business/biz ownership experience, and we are quite capable of original thought. Olivier is not passing out kool-aid or charmed us by being a cute, funny, whatever Frenchman. That’s one of the most offensive statements in this whole thread.
You want to know how we (Olivier and I) found out about ISMA? A couple of months or maybe less ago, Holly Hoffman sent me a DM asking about the legitimacy of the program. I had not heard of it, I do know who Mari is (and like Olivier originally stated in his post, thought she was a Facebook-focused evangelist.) I sent a DM to Olivier with the link that said something like “What the HELL is this farce? INTERNATIONAL SM Association?!” He responded with a similar sentiment, and we discussed both the ridiculousness and the potential scamming young, unsuspecting minds might be subject to. I asked him to write a post then, I think, but he waited until they emailed him directly.
This struck both of us as a bad idea at the time, and quite frankly, compared to the Social Media Academy program whose folks have piped up here, it looks more like a “how to use some tools” webinar series than their more rigorous program that has pre-requisites and a more typical scholastic approach. I have a problem with their certifications also, because when I went and hunted and hunted on their site for background info, I did not see lots of business-specific background information in some of the bio’s. One man’s was more obviously corporate, and he is not on Twitter so I don’t have an easy way to get to know him. I have no idea if their program is sound or worth the money. It looks better on paper.
Why can’t all of you folks just train people??? Why call this stuff something technically inaccurate? It’s the basic question of this post and this days-long discussion.
And yes, I used the word lemming without even having read Olivier’s response that also used the word lemming. So we think similarly – sue me! 😉
My reaction was a general one to the fact that everyone seemed willing to agree without knowing anything about the ISMA other than what Olivier reported. It would be as if a west coast rapper slammed east coast rappers without hearing the music.
Poor taste of words, sure. I’m sorry if I indicated no one on the thread was capable of independent, rational thought. Not my intention.
Y’all go ahead and criticize others for what they call this or that if you like. You’re welcome to disagree with the overall notion of certification, accreditation, and even the ISMA, too. I just think it’s childish to do so. My opinion. Sue me.
Jason, we had no way of knowing the history of ISMA, but have been around Mari for a year now, so it’s not like she was a total stranger. I saw her promoting Facebook help for a long time, then all of a sudden, this. We had no way to know the background story until she explained it here just last night, so we were “talking amongst ourselves” for a while.
Given the full details, I still have lingering questions – a lot of them – for this and other programs, but literally have to leave the house so the conversation will continue without me for a while.
Jason, I don’t consider myself a lemming (aren’t they the little suckers that go off cliffs following each other?!) in this conversation or in life in general…
I am glad that you offered your differing opinion and thoughts here, everyone should.
I think I’ve made my opinion clear but wanted to add one more thing and get your or anyone else’s opinion.
Mari made a statement that getting her certification in coaching was akin to getting a college degree. (“It means I underwent a subject-matter training course and demonstrated core competencies – similar to attaining a college degree.”)
Anyone else having an issue swallowing that?
Nothing personal towards Mari at all (Mari, I promise!), just the notion of a training course equating to a degree.
Perhaps it’s the card carrying degree holder (twice) and professor in me, but I think we all truly need to stop and think about this space. Seriously THINK about it.
The day we sweep academic rigors under the carpet and replace degrees with certification (because of something called “social media”} is, unfortunately, a very sad one.
I don’t want to even try to swallow that one. Certification for ‘coaches’ is just as big a joke as this is.
Jason:
Although both you and Mark describe the original post as mean-spirited and vitriolic, my perception is that Olivier was simply raising legitimate concerns in a temperate, though forthright, manner about an emerging organization, formed by individuals without significant standing in the industry, that claimed status and standing that simply isn’t deserved.
Had they named their organization the Social Media Training Institute or something equally innocuous Olivier would never have written his post. However, by assuming the mantle of authority ascribed to a genuine trade organization, Mari and Mark opened themselves up to legitimate questioning and critique.
I’ve read nothing that denigrates either Mari’s or Mark’s capabilities or right to form a social media training organization. Mari appears to be active in assorted social media channels, is an accomplished speaker and has developed an extensive following. Although Mark appears to be less accomplished in the social media arena, nobody would question their credentials if they positioned themselves simply as trainers, mentors or coaches. However, when they claimed for themselves the status of an international certifying body, the gloves came off.
I followed the discussions between Olivier and Mari over the weekend and they were far from venomous. Both parties were cordial, thoughtful and direct in their posts. I understand that Mari felt attacked personally, but the original post and subsequent comments were’t personally malevolent, they simply raised pointed and legitimate questions concerning the wisdom and appropriateness of their organization’s claims to confer internationally recognized social media status.
The commenters here have no issue with their desire or ability to provide detailed social media training. I don’t care if they charge $300 or $3000. The more people who gain a thorough understanding of social media and its potential the better. More power to them. But don’t claim some degree of social media dominion when it’s undeserved and purely self-serving. That’s our problem.
That’s exactly right, about what the point of contention is here!
That’s exactly right, about what the point of contention is here!
John, I think your comment here is a MUST-READ for anyone else who is puzzled or troubled by Olivier’s blog post or the comments to his post. You’ve distilled the issues down to their essence.
The post and ensuing discussion in comments is clearly not a personal attack against two business people starting a money-making venture. More power to them for that. We all applaud entrepreneurialism – most of us, I believe, are in that same camp.
Personally, I’m troubled that what started out as one woman’s personal training/coaching business based on her own ideas and theories about Facebook optimization is now being positioned as a “global” organization’s training program for credentials for the entire social media industry. Just because a single person positions themselves the arbitrar of social media authority doesn’t make it so – it’s just a marketing tactic and a misleading one at that.
Mari herself has admitted that her training program is still mostly in outline form, and that she – and possibly Mark – are the only developers of that outline. She also acknowledged that some of the content is yet to be developed by experts like Jason Falls who she is still in the process of reaching out to and also not compensating. She will clearly be reusing the content they develop to fulfill some of her $3000 training ($2795 for platinum members of the ISMA, to be exact).
If today Mari and Mark acknowledged the misleading nature of calling their for-profit personal coaching/training business the “International Social Media Association” and simply renamed it the “International Social Media Training Company,” I think we’d all agree this would no longer be misleading to the many unsuspecting folks who truly believe that ISMA is a verified nonprofit association offering carefully vetted training and credentials.
For the record, I had never heard of Olivier or his blog until Leigh pointed me to it this past week. When I read his response to the issues I had brought up in my own blog, I thought it was a much more incisive, well-written one than my own (http://bit.ly/4UjtNS) and have been nothing but impressed with his thoughtful, direct, uncompromising responses in this comments section.
What I did say in my post is that anyone putting themselves out there claiming to be the international credentials-giving association for our industry must engage in:
1. Transparency
2. Collaboration
3. Crowd Sourcing
This is the age of social media. Anything less would be the antithesis of the tenets of this emerging industry. And unfortunately, ISMA used none of the above.
Thank you for framing this so well. You just nailed pretty much every point that needed to be made here today.
Hi.. This surprisingly I read your blog with many knowledge. Just reading and follow discussion first as new comer.
Thanks for coming by. 🙂
Thanks Jason!
Olivier, you know I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and the folks responding to this but was very troubled by this “challenge”. Personally, I applaud anyone who has the gumption to start a new venture (whether I agree with it or not). Although some might think this is misguided, it certainly is interesting.
And, what makes this any different to the thousands of independent business schools, courses and other sources of learning across all other industries? Why should Social Media be any different? Lots of private educational facilities “certify” students based on successful completion of their respective programs. In fact, there are other Social Media educational programs already in the space. Why not address them as well?
I am nowhere near capable of auditing the content of this program and am not judging its merit, but based on the infancy of this industry, I’m not sure anyone really is. They will learn and evolve as the business does. Their credibility in the market will be judged by the value their graduates generate to their respective customers and employers.
I tend to agree that they did ask you and the likes of Jason Falls to participate because they are looking to create good value and quality. Perhaps there’d even be a way to get compensated if it had been discussed (at least in the future should the concept work out).
But as Jason mentioned, any attempt to further promote Social Media and spread the pentration of this business is a good thing for us all. I can only hope that some don’t see it as a competitive threat.
Steve, this isn’t a “challenge.” I am asking legitimate questions.
And to be clear, I don’t see this at all as a competitive threat (at least not to me). Why I do see it as, is potentially damaging to social media professionals as a whole. Which is why I am trying to understand exactly:
1. Why Mari and Mark decided to create an official sounding “organization” through which to push a $2,995 “certification” program – instead of just expanding the “Mentor with Mari” program, for example?
2. Why Mari and Mark didn’t get at least some reputable social media practitioners to join their board of advisors.
3. Why ISMA’s board has absolutely no contact whatsoever with the content of the “certification.”
4. Why a good portion of the “certification program” is being taught for free by whomever will reply to a form email with absolutely no semblance of a validation or approval process whatsoever.
Something just seems off. I have questions. Is that really so wrong?
Thanks for the comment.
Hey, thanks for responding. There is some great discussion coming out of this on the much broader topic of accreditation for the social media business. Congratulations for bringing all of that out in the open. It’s obviously a hot topic and one that I’m sure will evolve over time.
Specifically to your points:
1. I’m not sure this association was created for the total purpose of selling education (but could be totally wrong) but now I’ve had some time to look more closely at it there seems to be a lot more here than just the certification program. It seems to be more of a (or yet another) social network for people interested in social media. And, not a lot unlike many, many other associations (in this industry and others), does offer fee based courses as a service to its members who are interested. Do we need yet one more association in this business? Well, the ISMA’s ability to attract and retain membership will determine that.
2. I think they did get some reputable practitioners to join their board. Some may not have the reputation yet amongst the top ranking industry players. But are they reputable? They seem to be. Furthermore, there may be a potential market out there that is looking for alternative views and approaches other than those repeatedly promoted by some of the “Social Media Experts” with more pronounced reputations. That being said, how are others to earn reputations without stepping into the limelight and taking a shot? Isn’t that how everyone gets started?
3. I do find it somewhat odd that the board of advisors have not had direct involvement in the courseware itself or at least can attest to its merit. I think this is something that the board may want to consider addressing in order to increase the credibility of the organization as a whole. After all, by being on that board of advisors, the reputation they are trying to build is at stake. But again, one has to start somewhere.
4. Isn’t the fact that a good part of the certification program is being taught free a good thing. Firstly from a social media marketing perspective, isn’t that the right approach? Provide “free” (often publically available) insights as a way to encourage those who want to go further to spend money? This seems to be the way everyone operates. Secondly, as a service to the association membership, it provides a good vehicle to keep people involved and contributing.
Again, I think your questions are quite valid and responses are obviously coming fast and furious! But, like any passionate subject, sometimes people become too emotional and the real issues get lost.
A couple people mentioned in other comments the Inbound Marketing Certification at http://www.InboundMarketing.com put together by HubSpot (my company). I wanted to add a little info and clarification about it.
1) The Inbound Marketing Certification is completely free.
2) It is taught by people we consider to be industry experts on marketing (Chris Brogan, David Meerman Scott, Ann Handley, Gary Vaynerchuck, Avinash Kaushik, Rand Fishkin, Laura Fitton, Lee Odden and more)
3) Only ~65% of people who take the exam actually pass, meaning that the certification is real, and not just given out to anyone.
4) There are 1,000 Certified Inbound Marketers so far.
5) We put together the classes and certification because a lot of marketing people were asking us for education to help them get a job, or advance their skills. We did it as a public service, not as a way to make money (obviously, since it is free…)
6) It is not just focused on social media, it is a holistic approach to marketing. I believe that people that think that social media alone is a marketing strategy will fail. Social media is one tool, and you will only be successful when you combine it with other tactics, like blogging, search optimization, lead conversion and lead nurturing.
7) You can sign up and see the classes for yourself for free at http://www.InboundMarketing.com – please stop by, we’d love to have you.
(PS – I totally agree with your take on a $3,000 certification… not worth it at all!)
Thanks a lot for commenting, Mike.
I love that your program is absolutely free and that you don’t try to package yourself as an international accreditation body. Kudos to you for that.
Cheers.
Firstly, I am horrified with point B of the following statement:
“I don’t necessarily disagree with your notions that accreditation in social media isn’t something we can even begin to sell at this point, I’m not going to attack someone trying to do it because A) It’ll happen sooner or later B) Everyone has to make a buck somehow and C) If their stuff sucks, it’ll prove out to suck.”
This is coming from one of the ISMA’s guest trainers. Having to make a buck should have nothing to do with providing social media users with certification.
This is an extremely important and interesting debate and one that was needed after the International Social Media Association was formed (I still can’t get over the name).
There have been a few comments about Olivier’s tone during this debate. I would actually prefer it if his valid questions were properly addressed and answered. Some have been answered but not all. If everyone in this debate really cared about the Social Media world and those that use it then these questions would be answered and the issue at hand would move forward in the right direction. Unfortunately, questions are being dodged and personal comments are getting in the way.
If IMSA was actually a training organisation rather than an International Certification Body, then there wouldn’t be so many tough questions to answer, would there?
It is good that Mari and some of her guest trainers are taking part in the debate as everyone can see every angle of the debate – let’s hope it moves forward in the right direction. Here’s hoping.
Thanks, Robert.
I think that focusing on my “tone” (which may be a bit snarky, fine, but by no means venomous… or whatever) is a cheap way to deflect the conversation away from the points being made here – and more importantly, the questions being asked.
I kind of feel like the guy who raises his hand and asks how we’re actually going to make healthcare affordable at a tea-party rally and gets accused of being a socialist. Yet… no one actually answers the question.
Are the only answers I can expect to get:
a) How dare you question us and use a venomous tone while you do it?
b) We’re just getting started, it’s okay if it isn’t perfect yet?
Seriously?
The further we get into this conversation, the more bizarre the ISMA clique’s responses become. Acting offended about “my tone” is pretty weak, actually. What tone?
following this stream was a bit dizzying but worth the ride.
many here have articulated feedback eloquently, succinctly, and it’s exhilarating to see such flurry of thought intersect, collide and synthesize as you go further down the stream.
there is little for me to add here, as there are ample pregnant pauses in between points of view (or contention) for steady reflection in due course.
nonetheless, i will give props to two tribe mates: kudos to Joseph Fiore’s (@RepuTrack) comments, esp. for his last rebuttal as it’s very similar to what and how i would raise thoughts for debate. i would also echo a couple of points from Beth Harte (@bethharte) which capture two significant thoughts:
“Social media ISN’T changing marketing, PR, branding, etc. It’s bringing it back to it’s roots. Marketing always involved customers first…it’s the corporations that left them behind with their inside-out views.” – Beth Harte
“The day we sweep academic rigors under the carpet and replace degrees with certification (because of something called “social media”} is, unfortunately, a very sad one.” – Beth Harte
Thanks, Autom. (Very cool name.)
See? You had plenty to say after all. 😉
I am new to the Social Media bandwagon, but have been in marketing for over 35 years. As I read the posts he I am surprised and appalled at the venom of Oliver’s posts. I also went to his wordpress site and read his comments there. So I decided to do my own research to see what possibly could be the motive that someone could be so distraught about one email or the attempt by someone to provide a comprehensive course of training. After my research I came to the following conclusions:
1. If you take the price that Oliver charges per hour for “training” in his course and the offered it in the ISMA format, you would spend 10 times as much for the same number of hours of training and you would get just one persons opinion.
2. People who start associations and offer certifications in new professions always have an uphill battle because the “experts” in the field seem to be territorial about the knowledge and do not want anyone else to be recognized by certification as this would lend legitimacy and may cause competition to the elite status.
3. Instead of offering to help put together a group to offer constructive ideas and constructive opinions, Oliver does not want to do anything but “bitch.”
4. In my many years of marketing the old fashion way, I always practiced the old saying of “don’t trash your competition, promote your company.” It seems like Oliver never heard this one. The venom he is spewing can only come from his need to sell training at $1000 a day and any competition that could possibly hurt that income, he has to destroy.
5. In the other posts, there have been some very constructive comments and ones I think could bring positive changes to the idea of certification in this space. Those that took this discussion to an intellectual level instead of a personal attack have the right idea. The only way to change is through constructive dialog.
There, I have said my piece. I am not an expert in this field, but am looking for ways to expand my knowledge base. After looking at many different training programs and reading this blog, I have decided to take the ISMA course and then report back to the group, so that someone will actually be reporting from a position of knowledge instead of from Oliver’s claims. I do this because of the post by Mari where she opened up herself and the company for constructive help only to be attacked by Oliver. I am sure if someone was as myopic as Oliver took his course and tore it apart like they are doing with Mari’s, they would find just as many negative aspects. But some people have more class than to market through trashing the competition.
I will continue to read this thread if the conversation turns to a constructive dialog as many have tried to make it. But if it continues to be a marketing ploy by Oliver to sell his training through hatred and venom, I will look elsewhere to find intelligent discussion.
You raise some good points, Robert, so let me address them:
1. My trainings are trainings. Not certifications. I’ve said it repeatedly in this thread: If Mari wants to charge $3K for a training program, that’s perfectly kosher. No one has a problem with it. But what Mari and Mark and ISMA are selling is what appears to be a “certification” by a accreditation body.
There is a HUGE difference between charging for training and charging for a “certification,” especially in this context. Huge.
If Mari wants to develop a longer version of “Mentor with Mari” and market it as that, as a training, HER training, that’s fine.
As for the content of the trainings I am creating and delivering (WITH reputable social media practitioners, through an actual collaborative process), I guess it’s up to you to decide whether 8 hours with me in a classroom setting is proportionally more or less valuable than a series of webinars taught by Mari and whomever.
2. Yes. The experts generally have a problem with non experts creating poorly fleshed out certification schemes. That goes without saying.
3. I actually put forth five constructive ideas. They’re right in the middle of the post.
4. Let me be absolutely clear about what I am about to tell you, so pay attention: ISMA and Mari Smith are in no way and in no known universe in the entire infinity of spacetime anywhere within reach of anything resembling “competition.” Not in any way. At all. Not even a little bit.
5. This post is full of constructive comments. You should actually read them.
So… Robert, since we’re having a frank discussion here, and for the sake of disclosure, I have three questions for you:
a) Are you going to take this course?
b) Are you teaching any of it?
c) Have you ever taken when of Mari’s courses before?
Dear Oliver,
To answer you three questions, I think so, No and No. I am new to SM and I am continually trying to expand my knowledge base to better serve the companies I own and the ones I consult with. I have been a member of many professional organizations, and while some state they are nonprofit, there is always someone who is making money from the memberships and conventions.
As far as credentialing, accreditation or certifying there members, the associations have had many different criteria. I have read the several posts since yesterday and am pleased to see that the conversation has turned to a more intellectual conversation.
As a marketer, I think the name of the organization is a brilliant choice if you want to build an association that can be respected throughout the community. And since the SM community is international, their name makes a lot of since. An association is a group of people with a like goal in mind. From the materials I have received, that seems to be what ISMA is trying to build.
I am choosing to take their course because of the amount of information that is offered and the ongoing support. I am not taking it from the “certification” standpoint. I have so many on my wall already, I do not need any more. As I said, I will take the course and reserve my comments as to its content until I can speak from experience.
I have read your past several posts and maybe understand your first posts. I too, when confronted, tend to defend myself passionately and I can see that you are passionate about the “certification.” However, as this stream has gone on, you have stepped back and taken a clearer look at what you see as the problem and have become more analytical.
I appreciate the posts by all the posters, because it gives me some ideas. Sm is in its infancy and any organizations or associations will have their growing pains. It it grows like other associations, there will be hundreds in the next few years and then many will go by the wayside. At that time, the industry will choose which organization will be a “standard” and offer accredited standards.
During this growing period, many intellectual discussions will be had and many will be heated. Take a look at the UN. It still has heated discussions after 50 years.
Again, thank you for your time in answering my post and the direction I hope this thread is headed.
Let me be clear. I am neither associated with your organization or ISMA. I am just a marketer wanting to expand my knowledge.
My day has gone askew due to a car problem, and I must get to work, but I can’t stop thinking about this discussion while running around.
Several people here and on Twitter have said, “but what about XYZ industry… they have crap certifications too!” (I paraphrase.) I don’t know about those industries – I DO know that years ago, great developers were forced to get certified by Microsoft just to get jobs, and I found that troublesome. Some companies want to rely on certifying organizations to do their background and training for them, and in the meantime overlook the naturally talented person with loads of real world experience because they don’t have that stamp of validation.
So yes, certifications in general are only as good as the industry backing them AND as the people offering the training, which, from my uneducated viewpoint, should be a combination of academic and experienced practitioners. What is in it for the person who obtains the training??? Help with a job? Guaranteed better salary offers? Something concrete should be at stake for the certifying organization here, or why bother getting certified?
As to the question of “why make such a fuss about this?” let me share my answer. People who are widely considered social media masters, such as Chris Brogan and David Armano, used to do other things. (We all did – this stuff is a newborn!) I don’t know what Brogan did, but when I learned about him he was a blogger, now he is a practitioner and President of New Marketing Labs. Armano used to head up (I think) the user experience department at Critical Mass, an interactive agency. Now he is doing Social Business Design with the Dachis Group. I witnessed these changes as they happened, and many others, from social media-inclined friends I cavort with daily. Anyone with some talent to help clients or companies is changing their service offering to include social media – that is a given, and it’s great… you should see the new services offering in my rebranded company (still struggling to get it right, given all these industry changes and added skills of my team.) Olivier has Brand Builder Marketing but has now come up with an entirely new event called Red Chair just to focus on how to fit social media marketing and business practices into an organization or agency offering.
***No one faults anyone for offering a service of value.*** Read that three times. No one here at least, the bulk of which have some toe dipped in marketing and know what it takes to sign a client or company up for your program. What the flags are being thrown about and the alarms are ringing about, is SOME folks taking what they are offering too far, in an industry’s infancy, and thereby duping unsuspecting customers, which hurts us ALL if you will look at the bigger picture.
Yes, it’s America, and apparently in the name of earning money you can do just about anything, so Mari or anyone else can make up a certification plan and offer it to anyone who will sign up. But don’t expect to do it without criticism, because we will not be quiet. At the beginning is when things either go right or very wrong, and I really admire Olivier for giving those of us that agree THERE’S A BIG PROBLEM HERE a forum for stating what we see is wrong.
Mari, I have no doubt you have something of value to offer. I myself can’t do half the stuff you do on Facebook (other people on my team mess with that platform.) But certifying on a set of mostly tools, any of which could fall down and disappear tomorrow, does not a sound social media certification program make. I personally am requesting that you change the name and the tactic of this program or that you re-message it so that its limiting scope is clearly defined. Something needs to be changed about what you’re offering, and there are various ways to go, but I am requesting even if no one else will, that you make some changes.
ISMA, Social Media Academy and others, I also want to request that you spend time putting together better background information for your students about WHY and HOW and WHAT qualifies you to offer social media certification in a still-being-defined industry. You want to be first at the trough, you’re going to have to prove your worth more. I have not been reassured, nor would I send a referral to any social media certification I have seen thus far, mostly because I don’t know why you all feel qualified to do this – there’s not enough background information.
I’ve said more than my piece. The time to attempt to get people to do the right things for the people they are serving as students, clients and employers IS now, when social media as a methodology and practice is still being formed. This is how I feel.
Kristin, to one of your points, I actually posted my path to becoming a social media consultant on my blog yesterday:
http://babyfruit.typepad.com/mediagirl/2009/12/how-did-i-become-a-consultant-on-social-media.html
The post was inspired by how Beth Harte defined herself in her comment above:
“I am a marketing professional who gets PR and social media… I have 15 years of integrated marketing experience, perhaps that’s why we see things a tad different.”
I welcome everyone else to share your path. Not resume, but highlights of the career moves that brought you to this place.
Wait… you cavort? 😀
Fantastic comment, Kristi. Your points are spot on as well. Thank you for taking the time to express them here.
I will make a quick point then move onto my main point: Has anyone ever actually talked to someone that has PAID for one of these type accreditation programs? Forget whether or not you agree with them, I’m saying has anyone ever met a CUSTOMER of one of these? It seems there’s a blogstorm every month or two about programs such as this, and one of the main contentions always seems to be ‘These guys are making big money off this!!!’ I don’t think most of these programs make near what people assume they do, and I think that assumption is a BIG motivation in most of the criticism that these programs get.
Now, I wanted to touch on Jason’s comment. One of the things I’ve noticed about hot-button issues like this is that usually, one side gets their hooks into the conversation early-on, and it then becomes ‘piling on’. I think that’s the case here. I’ve met both Mark and Mari briefly, and enjoyed spending time with both of them. But I could never claim to ‘know’ either of them. And to be honest, I thought the tone of Mark’s comment here did more harm than good. And yes, I understand completely why you responded as you did Mark, because you felt like you were being attacked.
But I think in this conversation, the anti-accreditation crowd (or at least the people that aren’t a fan of THIS effort at SM accreditation) got a foothold early, and as Jason said, it’s now become a stream of ‘me-too!’s So there’s really not a lot of conversing and debating happening, it’s just one side overwhelmingly dominating the comments.
And to be fair, this is often the case on blogs. There’s very rarely a back and forth where both sides of an issue are evenly represented. I think it’s a bit ironic that social media is supposed to be about cultivating conversations, but that doesn’t seem to happen as often as it should. I see it happening on my blog as well.
But at the end of the day, Olivier has once again created a monster that’s gotten a ton of attention. Now how do we leverage this attention and move the space forward?
1. I have not met Mark of Mari. I don’t know them. None of this is meant as a personal attack against them. As an aside, how charming and delightful they may be as people in a social setting has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on any of this.
2. I haven’t created a monster. I wish I could take credit for this, but I can’t. Mari and Mark created ISMA. They created this “certification” program. They branded it. They pushed it out. They chose to make it what it is. People were already calling this out before I wrote this piece. This isn’t my monster, Mack. Not by a longshot. As an aside, I have nothing to gain by this. It’s basically taken over my weekend and I’m kind of done with it. There’s no ulterior motive here.
3. I think we’re already moving forward because of this discussion, aren’t we? Aren’t we talking about it? Aren’t you posting a comment here? Aren’t you at least thinking about certifications in Social Media? About ethics? About best practices? Isn’t that the point?
4. I actually support a certification process for social Media. So don’t assume that this is somehow politically motivated – that there is a pro vs. anti certification crowd, and that I belong to one of them. I will elaborate on this in my next post.
Thanks for the comment. So Mack, are you a guest trainer? ;D
A few thoughts… It isn’t up to the ISMA to determine who is a “social media guru.” Unless they had Seth Godin… That would be another story. Having said that, IMO, the value of the content that anyone provides in this space is determined by the people who follow it. Just because someone stamps you a “social media guru” it doesn’t make it so. Social media belongs to the people. Social media is popular because it gives people a voice. They will decide who gets that status. In fact, no one should have status per say. Social media is a collaborative effort. IMO, the ISMA has failed to recognize this. If they changed the concept to “social media workshop” this would be different. I don’t think that one, two, or even 10 people is enough to decide who receives “expert” status. The people of SM have been deeming what content and “experts” they like for a long time. Let’s keep it that way.
Funny you should say that. In my phone conversation with Mari, she implied at one point that Seth Godin was somehow on board with this. Her statement wasn’t entirely clear to me, so I asked Mari to clarify what Seth’s role was with ISMA. Turns out, she was just mentioning his name… in passing.
Agreed: ISMA (which is essentially Mari and Mark, not so much their board of advisors) completely failed to understand the collaborative aspect of Social Media.
And agreed again: changing the positioning of their “certification” to workshops and trainings would make their program perfectly okay from an ethical standpoint.
Thanks for the comment.
You’re welcome. Great post. I think that you’ve hit the nail on the head here. What’s so unnerving about this is that a few people think they have the right to dish out “expert” status. People are smart – they will see right through this. I say let them get certified. Unfortunately, the price tag is very steep IMO. I don’t think it will make a difference in the lives (or careers for that matter) of those who choose to get certified. In ISMA’s defense, I’m sure they’re offering useful knowledge, but probably nothing different than your typical SM boot camp. As always, the people of SM will decide what’s valuable and credible in the end. That is what’s so great about social media. It gives people a voice.
Olivier, you and I recently discussed my “country club” post ( http://businessesgrow.com/2009/09/21/the-social-media-country-club/ ) .
My main point in that article was that social media alliances depend on an economy of favors. If there is dissent, the favors dry up. So, the result is little or no dissent and a dysfunctional fortress of nicey-nice surrounding the major bloggers.
The names you mentioned over and over are your country club, your allies. They’re not lemmings, but they’re not going to call you out, either. You’re smart enough to know that. And don’t tell me that they do and they will. They don’t and they won’t. It’s just human nature.
So when a guy like Jason Falls calls you out, it’s a gift. You may be getting the most honest feedback of the day.
I’m not sure you even read Jason’s post. He wasn’t necessarily taking sides. He was calling you out for TONE, which was disrespectful at BEST. Call it “snarky” if you want. That’s just another word for rude. Defending the fact that you were rude just makes it worse, Olivier.
You’re a superb and compelling writer and could have written an effective post that elicited the same debate in a nurturing and professional manner. “Snarky” is not OK in a business setting, right? You wouldn’t be snarky if you were sitting across the table over lunch with Mari. Why do it in a venomous (and libelous) way for all the world to see?
That’s Jason’s point. And mine too. I’m a regular reader of your blog and a new friend but hate it that you resorted to publicly disrespecting other industry professionals.
Disclosure: I have recently written two posts politely criticisizing Jason but I respect him and respect him more for taking an unpopular position today. I don’t know Mari and never heard of the other guy.
Actually Mark, the one tiny assumption I want to correct is that none of Olivier’s friends mention the tone he’s using or approach he takes at times. We just may not do it in public. I talk to Olivier when I notice something (I usually ask about it, rather than admonish) and have since this discussion began. When I have a question about something he’s doing, I’ve found it easiest to just ask him about it, but I usually do so privately.
Kristi, If you walloped Olivier for his tone, thanks.
I was responding, though, to his comment to Jason:
“One more thing: Did it occur to you that perhaps all of these “normally sensible people” might be sensible now, as they usually are? That perhaps you, not them, might be looking at this from a skewed angle? … Statistically speaking, even? The odds of everyone here being wrong at the same time vs. well… you?”
He’s implying unanimous support for his view and his tone, which seems to ignore the fact that his posse won’t go off script. IMO, an objective business professional would find his language in this article inappropriate in a professional context.
“The names you mentioned over and over are your country club, your allies. They’re not lemmings, but they’re not going to call you out, either. You’re smart enough to know that. And don’t tell me that they do and they will. They don’t and they won’t. It’s just human nature.”
Incorrect assumption on your part, Mark. Let’s just leave it at that.
Thank you, Mack. I’m not sure how I got sucked into the “country club” theory now.
I’m not sure how somehow, some people seem to have a notion that we’re either all secret buddies or that I exert some kind of mind control over masses of bloggers.
You and I have disagreed about things before, and I was completely frank with you about it. There’s no favoritism here. At least not at the level suggested in some of these comments.
Well, Mark, if you think that my post was rude, that’s your call. I’m not going to argue with your perception.
If Mari and I had any of these discussions face to face, my questions and comments to her would be no different. My concern for what ISMA appears to be doing would be no different. And while I wouldn’t be rude, I also wouldn’t sugar-coat my concerns.
Mari and I have spoken on the phone and discussed this on Twitter yesterday. There was no rudeness on either side.
As for Jason disagreeing with me, give me a break. With all due respect to Jason, he accepted to be a part of Mari’s program: Of course he isn’t going to agree with me. 😀
Mark, I feel absolutely no need to “wallop” Olivier for his tone, demeanor or actions. I have checked in with him a couple of times (last night during his interaction with Mari, for example) and advised him to be cool. There was no need – he has not nearly gotten as riled up (nor has Mari, it seems) as some of us having during this extended dialogue.
I am proud that Olivier has the gumption to do and say things I think about, but don’t do, and that he is my friend. Just wanted to acknowledge him for that.
And for the record, I don’t have a problem with anything he’s said regarding this matter.
I know that you really believe in this whole “social media country club” theory, but man are you missing the boat throwing me into it.
Wow.
An economy of favors? Whose favor did I just gain, Mark? If I truly were part of this “economy of favor” thing, wouldn’t I have accepted ISMA’s invitation? Wouldn’t I have traded my reputation in the space for “exposure” by becoming one of their guest trainers? Wouldn’t I have gotten involved in an obvious pyramid scheme of influence aimed at legitimizing this? What do you think ISMA’s “guest trainer” program is, Mark? Most of us saw through it in all of ten seconds.
Think.
Also, I have to point out that it’s kind of insulting to EVERYONE who commented here to assume that they somehow can’t think for themselves, don’t you think? They obviously can. Their arguments are remarkably well crafted. Some are a lot better than the post itself. I am not brain washing anyone here. No one has to agree with me. The very notion that everyone who agrees with me does so because they’re my “clique” or my “posse” is complete nonsense.
Second I didn’t publicly “disrespect” other industry professionals. For starters, I didn’t “disrespect” Mari or Mark. Read the post again. I was careful to actually compliment them on their past achievements. I simply stated that given the scope of what they are putting together, they may not ALONE be the most qualified people to do it. I don’t think that’s an unfair observation, and given what we know of ISMA today, my concerns seem somewhat justified. Besides, they aren’t even technically industry professionals. As for Jason, I didn’t disrespect him either. He said his piece. Fine. Of course he isn’t going to agree with me: He’s teaching one of their modules. 😀
Shame on you, man. Seriously. No offense, but you’re way off with this.
Regardless, thanks for your comment. Your opinion is noted.
Perhaps now is a good time to re-read Clay Shirky’s “A Group is its own worst enemy” http://bit.ly/8WcPbP
…and Groucho Marx’s quip that he’d refuse to join any group that would have him as a member.
I’ve posted some thoughts about the tangent of this conversation — whether certification in social media makes sense http://bit.ly/6KuXWP — but I’ll note that a lot of the discussion here relates to branding. It’s always dangerous to try to brand yourself (your company, your organization) as something you aspire to be — but are not. If you can’t actually support the brand promise, you’ll be called out. That’s always been true, and is particularly true in the world of social media where everyone has a megaphone.
What’s the brand promise of an organization named International Social Media Association? The question is, can Mari and Mark and their contributors really deliver on that, _right now?_ (That is a very different question from whether their social media training is worthwhile.) Some of the questions I’d ask to try to determine that:
Is it a nonprofit, as membership associations typically are? Or is it a business? It appears to be a privately-held business, not a nonprofit.
Who is the executive director? Mark Eldridge. What is his background? According to his LinkedIn profile, his background does not appear to me to be well-suited to starting up a membership association but look for yourself http://www.linkedin.com/in/eldridge2m and decide if running NetRevMedia http://www.netrevmedia.com/ and being a timeshare broker dba Vacation Hot Deal Companies http://www.timesharehotdeal.com/ are the kind of background an executive director for an association of social media professionals should have.
Who is on the board of directors and what are their roles? There is no board of directors, but a board of advisors lists Mari, Mark, and six others. Only one, Carol Cone, seems to have a background I’d initially trust on first inspection.
What committees and sections does the organization have and who chairs them? Hard to tell what the groups are without being a member.
Starting a membership organization is not easy. It takes collaboration and consensus. Just look at what happened to the Amalgamated Order of Real Bearded Santas, as chronicled by This American Life: http://bit.ly/7G9rPm
A cursory inspection leads to questions of whether ISMA can live up to the brand promise of its name, and that’s surely why so many folks are skeptical.
Bingo. And by Mari’s own admission yesterday (not that it was easy to finally get a straight answer,) the board of advisors plays no role whatsoever in developing, approving, editing, validating or delivering any of the content of the “certification” offered by ISMA.
This whole thing is just amazing to me.
What a wild ride (reading this post and the subsequent comments) this has been…
To answer Mack Collier’s question. yes. I do know someone who has taken the certification program and she is very pleased with what she has learned and how she is now able to apply it. She has a background in broadcast media and now provides social media consulting services within a narrow niche–very effectively, I understand.
I also know Mari Smith (although not well) and have followed her career since early 2007. My personal experience with Mari has been very positive. She has been consistently helpful, kind and generous to me. I have read some of her materials and have found them to provide a wealth of information about using Facebook and Twitter effectively. Mari is a compelling speaker and built a strong support team. She excels at self promotion and has a real gift for coaching. The other people I know who have worked with her sing her praises very sincerely.
Having said this, I think Olivier (and everyone else who has commented or, like me, wonders) is justified in asking questions about the ISMA and its certification program. I actually learned of the plans for the ISMA some months before it went public and had many of the same concerns I have seen expressed in this post and in comments. And I do believe that, as John Healey says, “…by assuming the mantle of authority ascribed to a genuine trade organization, Mari and Mark opened themselves up to legitimate questioning and critique.”
(Actually, I think John Healey’s comments sum up the discussion nicely.)
I did not read Olivier’s original post as venomous or libelous although the tone of the conversation is getting testy now. I do think the discussion is vital to the ongoing growth and development of the social media space–all of it–with everything that represents. I appreciate Olivier’s being willing to start the discussion and the opinions each of you has expressed in your comments.
So there’s my $.02 ( in the for what it’s worth column). Does that make me a lemming? Oh dear…where’s the cliff?
😉
Allen, thank you for writing this. I really respect the fact that you presented both perspectives about this – including your positive experience with Mari and knowledge about one of her graduates doing well with the training she received. That was a wonderful addition to this discussion and puts your perspective in context.
I have a lot of respect for the fact that you can separate your respect and affection for Mari from the way in which ISMA seems to be operating.
You are obviously not a lemming. 🙂
… Although some of the folks criticizing me for my stance (and tone) here might now label you as a traitor, lemming or even a groupie now.
Again, thanks. Yours was a well crafted, astute and honest comment. 🙂
Olivier,
I’m exhausted just catching up with all the activity here! Kudos to you for maintaining such a high level of involvement throughout. Especially considering how often you had to keep restating your central (very valid) points.
The only other thing I want to say is to Jason: “everyone has to make a buck somehow” – seriously!? Are you really putting that statement out there as one that you think is defensible? I don’t think I need to go into what’s wrong with the statement. Just surprised you made it.
Thanks. Yeah, I look forward to getting back on a normal schedule asap. 😀
On your response to Jason: I’m amazed that a guy of Jason’s reputation would even say something like that. In this context. At the risk of being accused of being “rude” and “venomous,” I have to admit I’m disappointed by his… point of view.
Cheers, Eric.
Hi Eric,
I’m glad someone else picked up on that statement. It has almost been lost in all these replies. It is an astonishing thing to say.
Olivier – some people get being blunt and being rude mixed up. Trust me – being blunt can change things so keep at it.
I look forward to waking up in a few hours and having another 20 or so new posts on this thread to read through 😉
Rob
Thanks, Robert. I appreciate that.
Finally had time to re-read everything. Unfortunately, the ensuing conversation has not only solidified my original thought that Olivier’s implications in the post crossed the line to personal criticisms of fellow social media professionals, but now his insinuations and reporting of private conversations with Mari have painted an even more picture of her, Mark and now me.
– I apologize for the lemming comment and insinuation everyone commenting before me (or after for that matter) was one.
– My point is that Olivier’s snark seemed to cross the line into the personal attack zone. If you don’t agree, that’s fine. It’s just how it read to me.
Insult me all you want. Assume you know my views of accreditation all you want. That was the only point I was making. Olivier attacked people as much as he did ideas. I thought it was worth pointing out.
Congratulations on stirring the pot, Olivier. Makes for a good blip on the ole blog.
I haven’t attacked anyone personally.
And I haven’t insulted you at all. As a matter of fact, I gave you a pretty wide berth, Jason. What did I say:
“I am disappointed in his [your] point of view.”
“As for Jason, I didn’t disrespect him either. He said his piece. Fine. Of course he isn’t going to agree with me: He’s teaching one of their modules.”
“As for Jason disagreeing with me, give me a break. With all due respect to Jason, he accepted to be a part of Mari’s program: Of course he isn’t going to agree with me.”
“If you don’t see the problem with this, I don’t know what to tell you. Be a part of it if it floats your boat. To each his own. I won’t think any less of you personally for being a guest trainer for this “certification” program. Mari is your friend, so fine. Stand by her and her organization. That’s admirable in a way. But don’t make this into something it isn’t.”
The rest really is more about the topics of the post than my comments to you personally. Where exactly in ANY of my responses to you or about you am I being insulting?
I would say that I’ve been kinder to you than I should have been, given your surprisingly defensive attitude on this blog since yesterday.
Just so we’re clear, my insulting you would have looked more like this:
“I think you’re a hack for being a part of this thing,” or even “whatever professional respect I once thought you deserved just flew out the window now that I see you have absolutely no professional integrity whatsoever,” or even simply “you’re a jackass.”
Those kinds of statements would be insulting. Absolutely. But I didn’t go that route. What I actually said to you was:
“To each his own. I won’t think any less of you personally for being a guest trainer for this certification” program.” Hardly insulting.
Name-calling discussions aren’t really a good use of anyone’s time. I would much rather stick to the concerns about ISMA’s tactics that I clearly expressed in this post.
Thanks for the comment.
Well if nothing else can we agree that people who play in the social space are passionate?
A few people including @Aliza Sherman mentioned the need for a credible (my word) international association for social media organization. Wondering .. perhaps Paul Chaney and the folks who tried to get the IBNMA off the ground should reconvene. http://www.ibnma.org/ In full disclosure I was part of the advisory board which included Beth Harte, Chris Brogan, Des Walsh, Erin Kotkecki Vest, Larry Genkin, La Shawn Barber, Todd Carpenter.
By the way, Olivier, just wondering .. where can I get a copy of that cool social media guru certificate? Sure would look awesome on my virtual wall; perhaps I could include it in social media consulting proposals. Joke .. it’s a joke!
Thanks for the comment, Toby. Maybe you’re right, though I think that at this point, we may be too far down the road of “us vs. them” for any organization (even the IBNMA) to gain wide acceptance. Any hint of a clique forming a certifying body will be rejected by anyone not “in” that clique. (Some references were made to the “social media country club” earlier, which suggests a certain resentment by some people towards at least some of social media’s most well known figures of the moment.)
My follow-up post proposes a different approach to certification in this space. One that is more operationally specific in terms of content, and more organizationally specific in terms of delivery. Check it out and tell me what you think.
I just realized that had I accepted ISMA’s generous offer to be a guest trainer, I would only have 3 days left to prepare my material before having to present it.
(According to the email, the measurement/ROI module they wanted me to teach is on December 10th!)
Someone had better get cracking on this.
When, precisely, did bloggers and social media devotees become such delicate flowers, wilting at the mere mention of a harsh word or exacting judgment?
I failed to get the memo that all SM doyens are immune to critique, comment or censure. Can’t take the criticism? Then don’t broadcast your intention to coronate yourself to the SM throne and assume global responsibility for SM certification.
And, for the record, the only people who have been deliberately insulting are those who branded the opponents of the ISMA farce as lemmings or co-conspirators to Olivier’s insidious offensive. As much as I respect Olivier’s insightful writing and frequent thought provoking posts, he doesn’t command a cultish following. Really, we do have the capacity to think for ourselves, without detailed directives from Greenville. The only people drinking SM Kool-Aid are those who insist that it’s somehow irresponsible or immoral to call out a fellow SM adherent – even when their behavior violates our ethical sensibilities and common sense..
Thanks, John. I appreciate the comment. You’re a true gentleman.
I only follow orders. Oops… did I let that slip out?
I joined the ISMA a little while ago, since then I’ve been getting about 20 daily messages that all these people have joined up on the site and into one of the groups (either Twitter or LinkIn I’m in both). More importantly I get mnay followers now on Twitter. Well I thought that was important until I look at their bio and discover almost all of them have something to do with Social Media Marketing. So many experts, so many of them are making “boatloads of money”, sadly so many of them need me in their downline as they are into MLM’s. So my question as a small businessman and wanting to know about pointed marketing (and I asked this of Ann Seig as well) was, what does this mean to me, how can I use the tools offered to make a non MLM business thrive ? Nothing, no replies and I don’t expect any because clearly it doesn’t speak to me. If you want to puff up your status by being involved with others who think they are making it big in this industry, give it a try! BTW I loved the Pied Piper comment. Google it sometime. After ridding the city of the rats he comes back for 130 children starting at age 4 and steals them away from parents who never see them again! I wouldn’t want to be known as the Pied Piper of anything really.
Bruce, thank you for giving us an inside look into the organization from a member’s perspective. That’s a perspective we hadn’t had a chance to experience yet.
And yes, the pied piper thing has always perplexed me somewhat. 😉
Thanks again for taking the time to comment.
Cheers.
Olivier I just caught up with your answer to my comment. I can’t seem to comment up there in sequence.
I appreciate your response re “apples and oranges” but what I do see in many posts is an anti-certification mindset. Isn’t that apparent? Many contributors have made very pejorative remarks about certification per se. To me that speaks of a narrow mindedness and, for me, also supports the view of Robert Sims, with which I agree.
Regards, Walter @g2m
Yeah, sorry about that. Some of the replies to replies seem to be out of synch. It’s a little buggy for some reason.
I am actually in favor of certification. Check out my newest post to see why and how. 😉
Cheers.
Walter,
I can’t speak for every poster’s deep feelings about certification in general but I can say that my sense about the contributions above wasn’t so much that they are anti-certification but more that they are anti-hubristic and unqualified certification.
If you’re going to set yourself up as a certification-granting body with an authoritative name (“International” “Association”) you had better have some solid credentials and a rigorous framework/methodology behind the process. You also better expect serious scrutiny from your industry at large (it would even help to have some consensus built throughout the industry – perhaps by having undergone a process of wide consultation and deliberate, open criteria formulation).
On the other hand, if you are ABC Training Co. and you hand out certificates to people who pass your Social Media Consultancy training course then you attract very little scrutiny. And rightly so.
But I haven’t written anything that hasn’t been written countless times above.
Olivier,
I am on the advisory board of ISMA. I’m really surprised you have not resorted to critical analysis of me or my efforts.
However, I should point out to your reader’s that this is not the first time you have done this.
You were VERY critical of me and my event Social Media Success Summit 2009 back in May. It came out of no where and you seemed to take great joy in your efforts.
At the time I was really shocked. I thought “who is this guy and what did I ever do to deserve this??” But now I see it happening again.
I am sticking my neck out to let you know that I think you could have been much more professional in your response. I’m sure there are plenty of other’s who are afraid to comment because you do come off as an attack dog.
Mike @mike_stelzner
Mike, thanks for posting a comment here. Much appreciated.
I believe that I have raised legitimate concerns about ISMA’s tactics in this post, and Mari and I have spoken about all of this over the phone and on Twitter these last few days. I and the majority of my readers have made our positions (and questions) abundantly clear.
Everyone who wishes to leave a comment on this blog is free to do so. Please don’t be afraid to share whatever opinions you feel are appropriate and relevant to any discussion going on here.
Cheers.
OK I guess the judge is out
1) You hang Mark and Mari, guilty of doing something the larger part of this group of about 10 social media experts doesn’t like.
2) You make Oliver new sheriff and Beth deputy
3) You put a fence around your social media city and post a manifesto.
I just say this so that the 250 comments have some new fruit for discussion. hahaha
Sionara – arividercy – ciao
Axel
P.S.
Sorry can’t follow the threat – I’m still working
Axel, I am not a deputy to anything. I formed my opinions about certification back in January 2009. And I think I’ve made my opinion clear.
The notion that certifications are equivilent to a formal education one gets in college/university is just silliness.
And the thought that someone “certified” in social media getting a job over someone who has been doing social media as a FT job without certification is ludicrous.
Beth
Wow…an amazing thread, it’s like a mini-series. Good guys, bad guys, villains, heroines, super-heroes etc..I’m wondering how it all ends? Happy ending? The book was better?
I think I know what our topic is going to be in 2 weeks for our weekly #socialmedia Tweetchat..
There you go. 😀
I liked it. So much useful material.
I read with great interest.
There is little I can add that hasn’t already been expressed except perhaps the following.
I know what it’s like to post something you know will be controversial to an audience passionate about your topic, and who view you as as a thought leader. Regardless of you sentiments about the issues, Olivier deserves praise for his attentiveness to each and every comment, and his his nearly compulsive (in a good way) participation in this thread. There is perhaps no better example of how a “brand manager” might handle similar situations in social media (a brand should be so lucky as to have this much passion surrounding it).
Although I agree with Olivier that certification is probably inevitable, I think it’s ludicrous. It’s like getting certified in “the web” or getting a telephone diploma. Social media describes a set of tools. What you do with them is called PR, marketing, brand management, sales, and customer service. I think we already have certifications for those.
Thanks, Russell! I appreciate the kind words.
In regards to your last paragraph, check out the unofficial part 2 of this post, in which I discussed how we might actually make a certification process… more legitimate. What I propose seems in line with your observation: That there is no “social media specialization” from an operational level. That instead, what you have are PR professionals using SM, IT professionals using SM, Customer Service teams using SM, etc. And that in light of this, any legitimate attempt at creating a “certification” track (or tracks, rather – plural) would probably have to take that into account. If you take the idea a step further, you see how – in the case of PR roles, for example – an organization like PRSA or AMA might develop standards for their industry (demonstrable knowledge about XYZ, Best Practices, online reputation management training, crisis management training, community management, etc.) that could form the basis of an accreditation process (through training, testing, etc.).
I’m not saying we should go there, I’m not saying it’s necessary or even that it’s a good idea (and some of my readers make some excellent points as to why certification here is a complete waste of time), but the question may not be “should we” anymore – but rather “how.” If every shady outfit on the internet creates a certification scheme, and some pretty solid companies are following suit (Hubspot has a form of certification process – which looks like a good start – that it offers for free,) it’s inevitable that the concept of social media certification will gain traction with corporate HR departments, and that it will be a factor in the hiring of professionals of all kinds over the next few years. So… we may be forced to create a legitimate certification mechanism through PR, Marketing, HR, IT, Sales and other professional organizations that already create standards for their particular fields, as a quality control measure. In other words, to put the hacks out of business and restore some level of common sense and professional framework for all of this.
To put it another way, although certification in Social Media is completely unnecessary at face value, we may be forced by outfits like ISMA to create the real thing, just to protect companies and unsuspecting newbies from this type of nonsense.
Cheers, Russell. Thanks again.
Russell, you added a lot. I’m so glad you posted. I know how Olivier feels sometimes when someone says in a paragraph what I’ve been babbling on about in 5000 words… this is spot on, for me:
“Although I agree with Olivier that certification is probably inevitable, I think it’s ludicrous. It’s like getting certified in “the web” or getting a telephone diploma. Social media describes a set of tools. What you do with them is called PR, marketing, brand management, sales, and customer service. I think we already have certifications for those.”
A bit long for a t-shirt, but definitely why I have a problem with certifying “social media”. Thank you!
I’m certified in Microsoft Project. Does that count? 😀
Oliver, thank you for taking the time to shoot the video in your December 8th post to cover so many aspects of this topic. Social media training is definitely needed. Social media ‘certification’ for a few thousand dollars and under 100 hours of actual experience is ridiculous.
Even accredited institutions can not create programs that actually leave the newbie student consumer equal in knowledge and skill to an unaccredited person who has been actively participating in online communities for years. That’s a sham.
It reminds me of most internet marketing and self help programs that sell people on a ‘what’ while leaving them with the ‘how.’ Knowing how to be successful or to be an expert in anything can only come from doing it.
People who sell these types of get rich programs from the stage (or their websites) will never have many consumers who succeed. You can’t sell expertise, it has to be earned.
Yep. Expertise can’t be bottled. Or purchased, for that matter. 😉
I’m an expert vacuumer. But Dyson didn’t give me a certification.
I’m sorry, I can’t let you clean my house without proper certification. Liability issues with the Federal Vacuum Commission. I can’t afford to be fined.
Thank you to all who have commented here. It’s been a course in the value of authentic interaction to be sure.
Olivier, deepest respect to you for:
a. publically declining an offer you believed was inappropriate on so many levels.
b. offering your solid explanation as to why.
c. responding to each commenter which both honored his/her response and allowed you to expand your ideas further.
d. continuing to expand on the whole concept in subsequent posts.
Thanks very much to those with opposing and supporting views…simply for offering them.
To say I’m new to this world is an understatement.
To say I’m experienced in sensing authenticity and ingenuine motives is also fair.
What I can offer to this conversation that perhaps hasn’t been shared yet: as a novice in the use of these tools, I’m constantly, perhaps too much, looking for role models who are using the tools honestly, genuinely, modestly, and passionately for the betterment of all…not so much as to push one agenda as to further dialogue on so many topics.
I taught middle school for 10 years and now practice healing through prayer. I consult clients on how to manage thoughts in order to live a more healthy, happy life. I am not at all experienced in ‘business’ any more than I’m savvy at my use of technology. But I do see in so many realms a yearning for connection, meaning, purpose, and productivity.
Can we all just pause and nod that it’s awesome this group even cares about what moves forward as a potential standard?
I’m surely in awe of that effort, no matter how much debating needs to ensue.
I’m disappointed that there hasn’t been yet a public haulting to all current credential programs to wait for such a universally developed/agreed standard to be formed. Perhaps that’s naive to expect would happen.
But it should.
And yet, whether or not it does, you all are here, engaged and trying to create one such standard.
Thank you for that.
Thank you for leading by example.
Thank you for furthering my hope that there’s deep authentic engagement in this arena.
I’m so looking forward to participating however I’m able in what further evolves on this and other topics.
Best to you each through out the holiday season.
Thanks so much, Tresha.
I’m glad you braved this sea of comments to share your thoughts with us. Your input is as important to these conversations as the uniqueness of your perspective (which is to say, very).
Looking forward to having more conversations like this one (here and on Twitter).
Cheers. 🙂
Thank you all for your spirited and intelligent discussion. Not knowing anyone quoted or contributing here, I want to share some thoughts.
I don’t think Mari and Mark mean harm, although it’s quite obvious to many here. I don’t think they realize the full scope of what is being discussed here. Many believe imperfect action is better than no action. It’s like the six blind men and the elephant. Or as Anais Nin wrote, “we don’t see the world as it is, we see it as we are.”
I taught a variety of computer programs at various Southern California sites throughout the 1990’s. Intro to Mac or PC, MS Office (Outlook, Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Access), Adobe products like Illustrator, Photoshop, PageMaker, plus Quark Xpress, Dreamweaver, Painter, desktop publishing, web design and so much more.
I created presentations, handouts, curriculum and syllabi for colleges (public and private) and training centers (CompUSA, New Horizons, elsewhere), as well as major computer graphic conferences. Everything from a one hour presentation to animation professionals to 4 month college classes.
I wanted to weigh in with a few thoughts:
1 — Many major computer graphic conferences paid at least a few hundred dollar “honorarium” to its speakers. We were allowed free access to the whole conference, which usually cost at least $1,000 in 90’s money. Always allowed to promote our products or programs. I am stunned the speakers are told their participation will increase their visibility but they can’t promote themselves. Go swimming, but not near the water.
2 — I developed tests for certification programs. I taught a computer training class at the Jewish Vocational Services in LA. They had a state contract to prepare students for office work, with focus on MS s/w. My test was as rigorous and similar to Microsoft’s MOUS (Microsoft Office User Specialist). I was a certified MOUS because CompUSA required its trainers pass the tests. So I was both familiar with taking these cert tests as well as creating them.
3 — I earned several college degrees and certificates from colleges in a variety of subjects over several decades. There’s quite a difference between EARNING a degree or certification, which involves homework and tests versus getting a cert at the end of a training session. Most of the computer training centers, such as CompUSA and New Horizons, gave students Certificates for completing the class.
In no way were the classes nor certs ever designed to produce “experts” in any topic. The certs were proof they attended the class. Period.
4 — Whether someone signed up for an afternoon class or 3-4 month college or vocational training, the students, teachers and admin knew EXACTLY what was being taught.
I didn’t see anything in the email to Olivier asking him for his subject matter. No list of topics, nothing. How can anyone provide a cohesive training program without an outline of topics to be discussed?
5 — It’s really funny (or alarming) Mari had such a hard time answering Olivier’s questions, about the board, who designed the program, etc. She tweeted about that. She was too tired to answer. LOL.
I wrote her about an event she was promoting (I wonder if she got an affiliate kickback). It was free live, but only on a PC. The recorded session was biplatform, but costly. I asked how to view it live on the Mac. She wrote she DID NOT KNOW. She never got back to me. Hit fast and move on! Stay moving!
6 – I too wondered what is ISMA. I always wonder the background of associations and whatnot, so I’m not surprised at this thread. Most of the people responding here have real world experience and know enough to raise these questions.
Most people generally have no idea what is going on. They know Mari’s rep, based on her active Tweets and constant appearances. They figure her time and info is worth the money. They assume the people delivering the content have been hand-picked and approved by her. They assume she worked closely with the speakers.
Most peeps assume the speakers/contributors/trainers are being paid. The public would be shocked to find out you are expected to create and present a PowerPoint presentation, full of invaluable info, for free! Info which cost the trainer time and money to acquire and build their rep.
People don’t question because they make assumptions or just don’t know enough to raise these issues. I was turned onto Mari by a great friend who has no understanding of the issues raised here. He knows her rep and takes it on face value.
7 — My last thought is: I feel like you are in a leaking boat, with more water coming in than going out. As Mari wrote, it’s a big world. Maybe the best way to react is offer training classes. Promote the Inbound University and other resources like it. Free or lower cost. Then let the public decide.
As much as it’s getting to be a smaller world because we are online, it’s a noisier world. It’s hard to reach everyone. Reach those you can.
I am glad Olivier wrote Mari and Mari tweeted his name. I was wondering what was going down, so I clicked on his name and found this. Now I know about Inbound University. Plus Marketing Profs and more. Great resources. I appreciate what all of you wrote. You can bet I’ll share that with people.
So in a way we have Mari to thank for tweeting this. And Olivier for being so very level-headed. I applaud his logical responses.
8 — As a final aside, I want to share a personal story. I happen to be the most published punk rock photographer from LA, 1976-1980. I didn’t realize this until people kept telling me they grew up on my photos. They didn’t know about other shooters from my era. I wondered how they knew about me?
Then I started going through my files and realized just how much I had been published back in the day. Fans sent me scans of fanzines and mags with my photos. They told me stories. I had no idea the impact I’ve had, the current photographers who wanted to grow up and be like me.
But another photographer tells people stories I’ve told her. She didn’t know the people I knew and didn’t keep in touch with them. Silly me, I shared stories, never dreaming she’d appropriate them as she has. Lesson learned!
She promotes herself as if she were me. She’s fooled quite a few people. EXCEPT when major publishers included both of us in several books, guess who overwhelming had more photos published? Me. Who has a solo book from a major art publisher? Me. Whose photos sell for more money? Me. The cream rises to the crop.
But there’s a boatload of peeps who think she’s the cat’s meow. My way of dealing with her back-stabbing ways? I just focus on MY work and let her do her thing.
There’s a moral here, if you don’t mind my two cents worth.
Please keep promoting the GREAT people you’ve written about here. I thank you. And as others have written, some will benefit from Mari’s course. We can’t be everything to everyone.
In this crazy world, some people WILL be more impressed by paper, certs, degrees, etc. I know the foolishness of that, but those are the rules of the game.
Also, I gotta thank Mari. Her tweets are very in-crowd and oblique. I’ve clicked on some links and found some great peeps. As long as she keeps name dropping, she’s helping some of us find good peeps like you all! You never know where one will find good info and inspiration.
Namaste and Happy Holidays from sunny, oops, raining Santa Monica.
Wow. Thanks for writing that! Your Master blog commenter certification is in the mail. 😉
That was thorough, balanced, very well thought out. Very cool. You’ve even given me other things to think about, which is always a nice bonus.
As an aside, I grew up with your work too (I discovered your work when I first started playing with cameras, though I didn’t know who was behind it). You’ve inspired an entire generation of photographers. You know that, right? Myself included. How cool is it that so many years later, this topic on this blog would actually connect me to one of my very first influences as a photographer? I’m in hog heaven, right now. Big smile —> 🙂
Thanks again for commenting. I am heading over to Twitter now to let everyone know one of the coolest rock photographers on the planet just wrote me a kickass comment.
You rock. Cheers.
Thanks Olivier for your Master Commenter certification. I’ve actually been thanked on CopyBlogger too. My life is complete.
As for people being hired and burning companies so it leaves a bad taste for social media, I wouldn’t worry about it. There’s far more companies, large and small, who are searching for social media help, from certified or not peeps, than there are training ops or qualified peeps (which is the point to some degree).
Plus things change so much. For those who think one course or one consultant will change their business, they are fools for refusing to get into the trenches and PAY ATTENTION.
I can’t tell you how many people I’ve tried to share this info whose eyes gloss over. They keep coming back and asking the same thing. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Focus on those who are willing to take this journey with you. As for the rest, they can keep looking til they find someone who promises them it will be fun and easy. I’m NOT equating that with anyone or any program in particular. These are generalizations.
I really had NO idea my impact on anyone or anything til a few years ago. I know how many students resisted my computer training. I also know how right I was to insist on being thorough. Sometimes I run into someone who says, “I remember you. You were the technical one.” C’est moi!
That goes to the root of this discussion. Never back down, never give up nor give in nor lower your standards. Cos in the long run, some people will pay attention. You can’t please all the people all the time.
It’s the true power of Laws of Attraction. Note the high level of communication, accomplishments, and willingness to commit to being thorough, no shortcuts if that means lowering standards, of those on this thread.
Most people would be freaked out by this thread. They want it easy, now, fast and cheap. But three grand ain’t cheap. DO NOT let anyone tell you no one has money these days.
OMG, $3000! That’s what you get when you are known. Wonder what I could get teaching how to become a famous rock photographer. LOL!!
Oh, it’s not only WHO you are, but WHAT you are offering. Rockers are notoriously cheap. But to enter the hot world of social media, here’s my plastic!
Let others offer what they offer. They are happy being able to say they have a cert from so and so. Don’t worry, be happy. Really, that’s important. Giving people hope and happiness. Raise the bar and those who “get it” will flock to you.
I am not surprised at some of the big names I see online. I knew Guy Kawasaki when he was the Mac evangelist. A LOT of us got behind the Mac in the early days, but Guy put himself in the public’s view. AND because of his long involvement, the man earned his cred and status. Seth Godin too.
I’ve read CopyBlogger, ProBlogger, Yaro Starak and others on and off for years. I’ve seen WordPress grow like crazy while my fave Joomla stays in the shadows. But Joomla is growing, with more themes all the time. It’s just quieter. How I wish Joomla had a Matt and vocal community like WordPress.
Some people create a lot of attention for themselves due to marketing. Maybe it’s time to MARKET YOURSELVES more aggressively. Let peeps know you are here. Or maybe you are doing that, and sometimes it really is a matter of timing. Maybe the tipping point is around the corner.
**The best method is what you are doing. Blog about it. PLUS do blogcasts, podcasts, article marketing, really BROADCAST it.
Loudly and often! ALL over the net. Enlist others to pass it along!
Read the lyrics to that Broadway song, http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/h/heylookmeover.shtml, “Hey Look Me Over.” I had no idea it was from a failed show, starring the one woman who was always criticized for her singing. Lucille Ball.
You know Lucy’s history? That was a woman who believed in a higher power, universal mind, never let anyone get her down, and rose from a leggy showgirl to one of the most powerful women in Hollywood and business. Ever. With no money, no formal education. Innate talent and intelligence, plus of course her beauty and guts, but she worked on it all.
She was in the business for TWO decades before real success. And wow did she work hard during her climb and as hard after she became such a powerhouse. What an inspiration!
(The online lyrics are a tad different than the Broadway version. Good enough.)
I highly recommend everyone read http://www.wired.com/gadgets/miscellaneous/magazine/17-09/ff_goodenough,The Good Enough Revolution: When Cheap and Simple Is Just Fine. Very relevant to this topic. For a perfectionist like myself, it’s very illuminating and liberating.
I thoroughly believe in DIY. That’s the true artist’s way. So that is again why I say go for it and offer your own training, offer completion of training certs. Or not.
I often run across peeps who state they are certified web designers (after taking a brief course from teachers with questionable credibility, usually teaching Dreamweaver!, minimal if any SEO or PHP or CSS and I could go on, plus no testing or if any, show up and you’ve passed) or certified Life Coaches (whether a few hundred dollar weekend online course or many thousand dollar several month course).
There’s no state or official board who decides these certification paths. There are various companies and groups who offer training, but THEY decide the curriculum and cert process.
It’s not like being an American Bar Association Certified Paralegal (which I am, or was, let the certification lapse). The ABA is recognized by everyone. Its courses are rigorous and high quality. Plus I went to UCLA. But there are MANY other paralegal cert programs.
I took the program to protect my photos. Unfortunately, people laugh at paralegals, who have no power. I’m stuck with a HUGE student loan and still refer to attorneys to enforce my rights. So much for certification!
Now there’s talk of state regulations for yoga teachers. Many are certified from various yoga studios and associations. Most certification requires at least 200 hours of intense teaching/yoga classes. I am soooo opposed to that government/state certification! It will cause undue hardship and financial ruin for many small yoga studios.
Plus who is to say what is the right way to teach or practice yoga? Is social media that different? Who is going to step up and organize this? And regulate it? How?
Gotta throw this in:
The MAJOR reason I stopped teaching at colleges/universities a decade ago, which had been a life-long dream, and why I earned a MFA from CalArts, just to teach higher level education, was this:
ANYONE can get a degree, high school or college. Parents and students have hissy fits if a teacher dares to not pass a student or give a C instead of an A. Our “higher education” has minimal meaning these day.
How can we evaluate certification if degrees mean so little these days? If GREAT teachers like myself are devalued? I was one of the RARE college teachers with a MFA. Do you know how few artists have MFA degrees? (which I EARNED before punk photos). With my real world experience in the art gallery world, plus my published photos and REAL business experience, my writing and more?
Not that I am so full of myself. But compared to 99.9% of the other teachers, I was gold. Plus I mentioned I created tests, curriculum and so much more, which I was not even compensated for!
I was treated like dirt. Less valuable than the students and their parents! Paid so little too. Disposable. Thanks but no bloody thanks!
Colleges/universities and computer training centers think teaching web design is about Dreamweaver and meta tags. Seriously. Cos the cream of the crop moves on.
As for MBAs, don’t get me started. I know someone who recently graduated from Marshall School of Business at USC, one of the TOP business programs. He took ONE internet marketing class last spring. He couldn’t tell me one thing about the class. He’s now COO of a company, based on presentations he BOUGHT and showed at Meetups.
He’s very smart, determined, personable, and a go-getter. IN THE PAST, he’d do far better with his USC MBA than many far more qualified, experienced peeps on this thread who don’t have his degree or career path.
I bet many on this thread can do (are doing) just as well, if not better, than he is or will do. The playing field is more level these days. IF we step up and do our part!
The whole field of certification AND degrees are up for grabs, no matter the subject.
My final thoughts are again: please keep posting and sharing info about the GREAT resources and peeps in this thread, do the best YOU can do, and lead by example.
Fight fire with fire. Some people are going to be attracted to someone because they are pretty and popular, who makes things look so easy. Seriously, this is what peeps are saying about Mari. “She makes it so easy.”
I only WISH I could make this easier for peeps to buy into, get behind and actually accomplish! But when push comes to shove, it’s a lot more than meets the eye.
AND one thing I keep saying about Mari: she’s a connector, she knows peeps and talks about them. I wish she’d write deeper, longer blogs than just tweets, cos it’s sooooo hard to connect the dots.
So if anyone wants to be a success like her: follow her example, be VERY sociable, travel, and be a public presence. That is a HARD goal for most. But anyone can do it, IF they put in the time. Mari does work at it! I credit her for what she does accomplish.
My goal is to empower people to succeed from their home, anytime, anywhere, but they MUST learn solid foundational skills and concepts. And be connectors and mavens and salespeople and EXPERIENCED.
(Ok, I’m a Malcolm Gladwell fan. LOVE The Tipping Point and Outliers!! Need to finish Blink.)
It takes a TEAM. We ALL need to know good web designers, programmers, SEO folks, content writers (many cannot write), and more.
THAT’S what I am looking for: people who seriously want to be part of various teams. I am at a loss to recommend really good web designers/programmers (both WordPress and Joomla). Who will work with an art director like myself? Most everyone I’ve found who claims to write is gawd awful! It’s all ego ego ego.
I’ve been highly tempted to start bragging about all my certs and degrees. If you’ve got it, flaunt it. But the proof is in the pudding. Where’s your body of work?
I am more amazed at people who state they are such pros and their sites, if they have one, are a mess. They have no list of accomplishments, other than what they tell peeps they’ve done. (ok, sometimes the shoemaker’s kids run barefoot. I’m guilty of that, but working on fixing that situation ASAP.)
Lastly, it’s really an amazing thing to find out, usually quite casually, just how many peeps know of my photos. I totally get you about not knowing it was my work.
That is why I am so big on giving credit where credit is due!
Do you know what it’s like to go through life with people saying, “I never knew YOU took ALL those photos?” Or better, “You shot them at CBGB’s in NY.” Born, raised and living in LA and proud of it! Or that ONE valley girl took so many classic punk photos and never took one photo class nor studied the art of photography.
Or that peeps think I’m so rich and famous when I’m neither because people did not credit my work. That’s the tragedy of my life. Lack of photo credit killed my archive.
BTW, my book is called “Punk Pioneers” from Rizzoli/Universe. But they chopped up my text so much I can’t read it! So much for the corporate world . . .
I’ve written enough . . . everyone have a HAPPY HANUKKAH, tonight at sunset, which means it’s already on in Paris. Hanukkah is the Feast or FESTIVAL OF LIGHTS.
Let us be the light we want to see. Let us lead with lightness, a light touch, passing the torches, with enough light for all of us to share!!!
Hanukkah was the first battle over religious freedom. The right to believe in whatever our hearts and souls tell us. A great ending to my comments here. Be the leaders, spread the word, shed light on the subject. L’chaim, to life!!
Your book WAS called “Punk Pioneers.” That was before you wrote this one. 😀 LMAO. You rock. That is absolutely the longest comment anyone has ever left on this blog + the longest letter of any kind that anyone has ever written to me (and I have some pretty verbose family members). I’m impressed. Thank you for all this attention. 🙂
Funny how you can apply what you’ve learned from photography to something like Social Media (though the latter is a fleeting turd compared to the art of capturing life in pictures – in style, content and importance): Learning “the proper way” to take photos in class, getting a degree in photography, even is going to accomplish one thing and one thing only: Make you a boring photographer. Yeah, you may be master of precision, of perfect photographic form, but who wants to be a robot? Photography isn’t about precision and adherence to conventions anymore than beauty is about perfect symmetry. Hemingway, McCarthy, Palahniuk, Twain… All flipped writing conventions the bird and found a way to bend the English language to their will. They wrote how they felt like it, and it made them legends. Miles Davis and Jimmy Hendrix did the same thing with music. From military strategists, educators and scientists to musicians, designers and CEOs, the ones who don’t give a rat’s ass how everyone else does it and go figure it out on their own help change the world. Those who quietly sit in a certification class (especially a crappy one) to learn how to do something the way someone else tells them to are setting themselves up for a pretty dismal 3rd rate career. You actually have to get out there and play the instrument, shoot pictures, flank the enemy, build the better desk, prototype the media player or write the essay. In your own way. With your own voice. Even if no one ever gets to enjoy it.
It isn’t to say that instruction isn’t helpful (and in some cases, crucial), but instruction, no matter how well put together, can only do so much. From a photographic standpoint, I had to learn how to properly change lenses, clean the glass and clean the mirror without scratching anything. Someone had to show me how to play with manual focus, film speed, aperture and shutter speed. That person was my brother. And you know what he did? He put a Pentax K1000 in my hand and said “come on, we’re going to go take some pictures.” The combination of instruction (or rather, guidance) and practice, practice, practice… and experimentation (LOTS of experimentation) is what made me a decent photographer over time. Instruction only started the process. It didn’t end it (which is what a certification tends to do.)
Writing blog posts, driving a car, shooting a gun, nailing my serve, crushing field sprints, speaking English, finishing a video game, snapping the shot, closing the sale, and just about everything else works exactly in the same way: Let instruction build the foundation, then the framework… but everything else is up to you. If you want to be nothing more than a safe and reliable operator, certification might be for you. But if you want to be good at something (and I mean really good), certification is a complete waste of your time. We aren’t talking about operating aircraft or sailboats or scuba equipment here. We’re talking about creatively (and intelligently) integrating technologies, strategies and tactics into an organization’s complex and chaotic little world. And making sure the result is nothing less than ass-kickery. No certification in the world is going to help you do that.
Nobody gets to be a black belt after 8 or 40 or 80 hours. It just doesn’t work that way. What are these people being certified in? Being a novice? Is that what “specialist” means now?
I can train you, I can help you get to the next level, but that’s it. I can’t make you a superhero. That’s your own personal journey, and guess what: It takes time and it takes work, neither of which have anything to do with taking a $3,000 webinar.
Happy Hanukkah to you, Lady Jenny Lens. And L’chaim. 😉
Oops, edited the Wired link incorrectly (that’s what I get for not testing before posting).
The Good Enough Revolution:
http://www.wired.com/gadgets/miscellaneous/magazine/17-09/ff_goodenough
Jenny, you said some things here that really mean something to me personally, given what I do and where I come from in life. I just wanted to share them with you and say thanks for writing this – I will remember what you’ve said here…
“You know Lucille Ball’s history? That was a woman who believed in a higher power, universal mind, never let anyone get her down, and rose from a leggy showgirl to one of the most powerful women in Hollywood and business. Ever. With no money, no formal education. Innate talent and intelligence, plus of course her beauty and guts, but she worked on it all. She was in the business for TWO decades before real success. And wow did she work hard during her climb and as hard after she became such a powerhouse. What an inspiration!
Who is to say what is the right way to teach or practice yoga? Is social media that different? Who is going to step up and organize this? And regulate it? How?
My goal is to empower people to succeed from their home, anytime, anywhere, but they MUST learn solid foundational skills and concepts. And be connectors and mavens and salespeople and EXPERIENCED.
Some people create a lot of attention for themselves due to marketing. Maybe it’s time to MARKET YOURSELVES more aggressively. Let peeps know you are here. Or maybe you are doing that, and sometimes it really is a matter of timing. Maybe the tipping point is around the corner.”
Olivier,
Merci d’être aussi incisif et décapant mais toujours avec un brin de courtoisie et d’humour. Ça valait la peine de lire ce billet car il contient ample matière à réflexion pour quiconque songe à une formation de base en médias sociaux.
Passez de très joyeuses fêtes !
Patrice Leroux
Merci, Patrice!
Joyeuses fetes.
Holy Crap there are a lot of comments on this post. And I read them all. Ironically, my comment is “no comment.” 😉
And guess what: You’re the only one to have commented with “no comment.” Creativity is indeed boundless. ;D
Thanks, Aaron.
Great Posting to share . Thanks
Great information Thanks for sharing
Olivier and all,
Much good is coming from this discussion. For me, it’s prompting me to complete my historical survey of what-led-me-to-here, which is fun and about time I did it.
I’ll keep this brief and just report on my gut reaction when I saw the “release” from Mari Smith about the program: Yuck. First question: Who certifies the certifiers? And then, well, frankly, I went back to work. Thank YOU for taking the time to speak up and say wait-just-a-darn-minute-here. Like others in this long train of thought, I figure the program will snuff itself out soon enough, and people who want to belong to something enough to pay 3K are going to do that anyway.
But you’ve given us a gift here. What you’ve done is moving the whole unwieldy industry more into the light. The conversation you triggered and are still tending is helping many people see who cares and why. That’s a whole lotta good.
“International Certification” needs much qualification and governing. It’s just too full of itself. An industry that has emerged in less than three years simply doesn’t have enough roots to develop a real credential around it. Inbound Marketing, with its free program, provides a service that could eventually be those roots. But many diverse souls need many diverse tools of expression. So it goes.
Thanks again for your intelligence and time commitment. I can see your shiny glow of cosmic certification from waaaay over here.
Suzanna Stinnett
Thank you, Suzanna. Telling me that I’ve given you a gift with this post is a VERY kind thing to say. It makes me feel very good about what a few people see as negativity on my part. I appreciate it. A lot. 🙂
Cheers.
I am verbose. Just as I took tens of thousands of shots, I write a lot! In an age of Twitter, that is a handicap.
I am trying to be more accepting in my life. I see no problem with training, degrees nor certs IF they are accompanied by life experience.
That’s why OUTLIERS should be REQUIRED reading by everyone! It’s a combination of talent, environment, intelligence but MOST OF ALL, motivation, focus and work work work, 10,000 hours. Well, at least more than a few hours here and there.
Did I put that much time into photography before taking pix? No, but I studied and made art for two decades first. I created art since I could first hold a crayon. I lived in the library. I went to art shows. I had minimal art education support. I was mostly self-taught, except for a few great college classes. I love technology. Good thing, cos I taught myself everything about a camera, while I was taking photos.
(I only wish I had a good relationship with my brother. Or someone taught me about photography. But we all learn differently.)
Would I have been better off had I studied photography, knew how to use a darkroom, really looked at rock photos and most of all, had a better camera and better film?
Would the whole experience have been more enjoyable? I actually hated everything about photography, except seeing the results (there’s thousands of negs I’ve never seen).
You betcha!
My only objection is the masses of people who think those of us in the trenches, who know how to do something, used a magic bullet. How many times did peeps ask me what camera did I use? Do you know how offended I became then as well as now? As if the camera made a difference. The reality is my camera was crap. IF only I had a better camera and the top labs treated our photos better.
We do the best we can do with what we have. That’s my philosophy, but that is NOT what most think. Look at Bush, who bragged about doing as little as possible in college. I know and have taught lots of people like that. Fly low and avoid the radar. Slide by.
Can you believe that CalArts mailed my MFA degree to me in June, my scheduled grad date, but my MFA show was the following October? LOL.
When I taught computer programs, everyone wanted to know how long it took for me to learn how to do a task. In most cases, no one showed me anything. I had to learn by trial and error, over and over and over and over, with too often badly written manuals. But I read the books anyway, sat in on courses, grabbed every op to learn.
The glue which held everything together: EXPERIENCE. Walking the walk. Teaching helps me learn. Everything is a learning experience. IF ONLY more peeps felt that way!
How did I learn how to copy/paste? Believe me, that was a BIG issue for many office workers. Why bother learning how to label a file or make a folder?
I always said: “How many times did you have to write and recite the multiplication tables until you learned math? How many math classes did you have? That is how you learn. You spend as much time as you need until YOU learn. YOUR experience has nothing to do with MY experience. We all learn differently.”
The reality is most people are highly resistant to learning. They love shiny new gadgets, with their attention spans decreasing by the moment. If we didn’t force children to sit in school, most would not learn. Add junk food, caffeinated and sugared drinks and food . . .
‘Tis a pity, with so much information and so little patience and interest.
“Show me the shortcut.”
“How do I get to be number one on Google? Why isn’t my site showing up at the top? Show me how to add meta tags.” I always say, “If it were that easy, everyone would be number one.” No duh, right? Except few stop to think about that.
Oh well, it is so time to move on . . .
Just got off phone with a rather irritating tech support for my scanner. Had a problem, and rather than really talk to me, told me to update the software. Now it’s crashing my version of Photoshop. Urgh. Now I have to scan separately from Photoshop. I learned from him, but IF he listened to me, he could have learned about this issue from me too!
Scanned a newly discovered shot of Joey Ramone, in between Genny Schorr (of the LA band, Backstage Pass, who later opened for Elvis Costello in his LA debut) and me in my homemade Ramones t-shirt. I’ve got my Starwood backstage pass on my shoulder.
I put my backstage passes on a file cabinet, which my brother gave away. Did I mention we don’t get along? Can you imagine giving away a cabinet with walls covered with backstage passes?? Urgh.
One Joey and two G/Jennys, shot with my camera by Danny Fields, the Ramones manager. Danny is quite a legend. He worked with the Doors, Iggy, good friends with Linda Eastman McCartney, part of Warhol’s Factory, and a really nice guy!
Did I know any of this? Was I aware I was surrounded by GREAT managers, writers, amazing rock personalities? No, I had no idea who anyone was for the most part. I just photographed people I thought interesting.
I really could have benefited from ANY education re photography and rock ‘n’ roll! MFA in Art, and what did I know? Just how to capture a great moment in time, with fascinating subjects. And which bands were overlooked at the time, but destined for immortality. (too many still overlooked.)
Four Jews. I gotta clean it up and post. What a nice treat. We’re all smiling. And scan a neg of Deborah Iyall, before Romeo Void, with some pals. I never knew I shot her, til I came across the neg and put the pieces together. “Never say never!”
AND that is why I do what I do. To share the joy. Let’s please focus on this.
There is JOY from/in everything we do, and that includes Mari and Mark. We do the best we can do. In all its minute variations. Good enough!!
Let’s all do the best WE can. Continue this discussion via our work. Enjoy the ride. There’s room for success for everyone here. Really. It’s such a pleasure to read your posts. YOU are inspirational. Even Mari too. In her own way.
Things have a way of working out as long as WE do our best. We’ll see who is still around in two years and in what capacities. I expect a lot of changes. I bet you do too. Here’s to the next decade!
Pls don’t think I’m a Pollyanna. I’m as cynical as they come. As Joe Strummer so famously wrote, “let fury have the hour, anger can be power.” (The Clash were the BEST live shows ever! OMG!)
I don’t mean to brag, I just love sharing these stories and photos. I worked so hard at my pix ONLY to share my memories. NOT set myself apart or better. I have faults. G-d and I know that all too well!
I’m always pissing someone off with my strong statements. You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. And to each their own.
Gabba gabba hey, we accept you!
Himself very important, even driving away?To reach any, actor Chazz Palminteri.Very clear Suppose, sore spots under.They did not Secret youtube web video strategy to supercharge y, you deserve When of drivers and.Of the Casting, of the mugs.,
Great post and I am sorry to be just getting around to it. The 1 thing that really gets me is how some above are afraid to include “Social Media” within their current job description or Title – based on these types of individuals (the snake oil salesmen).
I am proud to be involved in Social Media Strategy for large corporations and have a great background to go with it, and I am, in no way going to change my title, job description or anything else based on these types of individuals and what they are doing. Now I do not call myself a guru or evangelist, but I am a stragetist.
Mike
You know, Mike, I wrestle with that every time someone asks me what I do. On the one hand, for the sake of clarity, I want to say that I am a Social Media consultant… but I cringe every time I start to say it because of the army of yahoos out there who call themselves that and can’t get beyond “here’s how you start a Facebook account.”
Technically, I’m a business strategist. More specifically, I’m a brand management strategist. And lately, because social media is all any of my clients want to talk about, I guess it’s fair to say that I’ve become a social media strategist by default… So I don’t know. I envy your sense of clarity. Me, I am still walking on eggshells when it comes to telling people I’m a Social Media anything. I prefer to lead with business or brand management, then add social media to it. I hope I’ll be able to get all of that sorted it out in 2010. I’m tired of hesitating every time I have to explain what I do. ;D
Cheers.
Olivier,
I could not say consultant either, no way.
It is tough, it really is. I wish that we could go back to the days of Online Community Management or Online Community Development, which really speaks to what we are doing, maybe Brand Development and Awareness, Online (what you are elluding to). The “Social” paired with “Media” has become too confusing and all-incompassing, IMO. Many do not even understand what IT is, but the want to get involved in IT.
Mike
It’s tough when you have to “qualify” the use of the term “consultant.” We need to take it back. 😀
Wow, a lot of great comments!
I like the blog, bookmarked!
Justin, Olivier has developed a full-day training course (to be taught as workshops in various major cities in 2010) that will be of far more benefit to managers, execs, marketers, PR pros and ad agency staff than a one-hour webinar could possibly ever be. Lisa Qualls & I are planning to bring it to Kansas City, sometime in late spring/early summer most likely, for exactly the reasons you mention him doing the IMSA course – it will benefit people who need to know this stuff, so we want to give KC folks the chance to dig in with him for a day and really get their hands dirty. I hope you’ll be able to join us. I’d link you to the site about it, but it’s not quite live…..
http://www.onlineuniversalwork.com
What happen guys..?
I’m a bit repulsed that this fauzrganization is based in NH, a state I’ve been working so hard to bring tech and social media knowledge to with Social Media Breakfast NH, PodCamp NH, Strong Women in Tech and more for the last few years, and that it is being run by someone I *know* has attended workshops put on by myself and other trusted SocMed people in NH and so… if they paid attention then they should know better than this. Disappointing. But in the end, people can tell the difference between a load of horse puckey and the real thing, even if the buyer has to learn from experience. Caveat emptor indeed.
Leslie Poston
Twitter @leslie (retired handle @geechee_girl)
SKYPE: UptownUncorked
UptownUncorked.com Social Media Consulting: Bringing People Together, Founder
FilmPop.tv A Digital and New Media Agency for Independent Film, Co-Founder
You can read my work at Mashable, Style Career Publications, Technosailor, Media Bulls Eye, Louis Gray Blog, Blorge, Free Access Australia, Lost in Technology, Profy and now: Twitter for Dummies (coauthor: Fitton, Poston, Gruen)
“fauxrganization” – it seems I am too agitated to spell my own “word” 😉
Okay, THAT’s funny. #instanthashtag 😀
NOW I know why the name sounded SO familiar! @ismaconnects attended PodCamp NH and became a (generous, I might add) last minute sponsor. But that makes me wonder what they did there – as PodCamp NH was NOT about promoting this kind of behavior. They’ve also attended several SMBNH meetings, looking back at rosters, but what did they glean from it all if they can then make a certification company?
This is inspiring me to think of a different sponsor model for PodCamp NH and SMBNH 2010…
True – maybe instant list…. hmmm
Hey Olivier,
I’ve taken a bunch of time to getting over to comment, apologies.
Thank you.
For the past year one of my biggest concerns about this space is how little we hold other’s up to their actions/behavior (promotions?). I applaud you for taking the time to write this post and speak honestly and openly. I know you’re getting a lot of crap for it but you rock dude.
-Chel
I really enjoyed the article. Its always nice when you read something that is not only informative but entertaining
Im surprised to receive an email blast from Mari about the dissolution of ISMA!!
Here’s part of the email content:
In order to communicate this transition in person and answer any questions you may have, I will be LIVE on Ustream today, Friday, April 30th at 1:00pm PST / 4:00pm EST.
Do pop in any time if you can at http://marismith.tv
I will likely broadcast live for approximately 90 minutes.
The show will be recorded and the replay will be available at the same
link if you’re unable to join me live.
I also invite you to read this blog post:
http://marismith.com/isma-what-went-right
wow what a read, for the past 4+ years I have been on hundreds of webinars and listened to 100’s of podcasts on SEO and PPC and some Social Media.
Actual Training on SEO and PPC I’ve also taken place in and purchased DVD’s from reputable places that are known within the SEO Community.
For Social Media I wanted to update myself and more importantly my VA. She needs some sort of course, training or consulting for her work more on her own with our team so I can do what I like to do…. (talk to clients on the front lines)
I find it difficult to narrow down who really is officially set up and qualified in Social. I mean our clients twitter accounts and facebook accounts have more action then some of the people I find teaching? I mean we know how to do the basics and intermediate design, set up and engagement – including targeting etc… But WHO is offer full Advanced Strategy with proven tactics that have worked inside facebook, LinkedIN, Youtube and Twitter?
If anyone here knows and could offer a link and more importantly a “why” I would really appreciate it.
In Search of Learning
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