In case you missed it, the “social media guru certification” crowd is at it again. Hat tip to Jim Mitchem for pointing me to this new one earlier today. Here… let’s give them lots of traffic*. (And get caught up on the fun.)
*Update 9/20/2012, 14:30pm EST - It appears that the entire thread referenced in this post (yes, the entire LinkedIn group discussion) has now been deleted by the community manager. Wow!
Pretty quickly after being posted, the LinkedIn comment thread* started to turn sour. Here are several of the comments so far:
Jim Mitchem • What? They didn’t offer me a certification for being a copywriter. I just did it. Won awards and sold a ton of product. No certification necessary. They didn’t offer certifications for me being an entrepreneur who launched one of the first virtual ad agencies in the world in 2001. I just did it. Won clients and shifted perception. They didn’t offer a certification when I helped launch Boxman Studios in the social space (exclusively) in 2009 based solely on a concept only to yield 6 million a year in sales in just 3 years. I just did it. No certification necessary. You ask how I differentiate myself from the fake gurus out there? By avoiding snake oil certifications. And just putting my mind to doing something right. Seriously, if you’re trying to get certified to be a social media rock star – you might want to make an appointment with a psychologist as well.
Jon Evans • I’ve been in the social media strategy field for sometime now and I have NEVER been asked for a certification. It is disappointing to see someone try to make money off of scrambling “Social Media Consultants” because those agents can’t figure out how to run their business and make money. I would also like to point out that the people that are most defensive are the ones that stand to benefit from the sale of this product. I find that interesting… Bad form folks just bad form.
Jessica Wicks • Until there is a professional standards body for licensing social media professionals (unlikely to EVER happen) that recognizes this ‘certification’, it means nothing. Perhaps you could use your certificate to con a couple clients into thinking that there is a governing body over the profession? Other than that, I can’t think of a reason anyone would open their wallet to this offer. You’re better off to sell this course as a learning opportunity only – or better yet offer it for free to promote something of value you’ve created like an analytical tool or aggregator. There are so many sources out there for FREE advice on using social media – perhaps you should take note. By offering to ‘certify’ me, I’m going to completely ignore your links.
Todd Copilevitz • This is the worst kind of entrepreneur, someone who sees where the crowd is moving and tries to cash in from behind. Actually there is some value to this program, it will allow me to quickly dismiss as irrelevant anyone holding this certification.
Linton Robinson • This is a sick joke. This entire type of mentality is a stupid rip-off.
Okay… You get the idea. (You can go check out the thread for yourself here*… assuming that any of the comments are still there. One of my questions was deleted just a few minutes ago, so I have to assume that the folks behind this thing are being selective about what actually stays in the thread and what doesn’t… but no worries, we’ll come back to that in two shakes.) *Update 9/20/2012, 14:30pm EST - It appears that the entire thread referenced in this post has been deleted by the community manager.
A few points:
1. Read the whole thread*. It’s well worth it. The problems I raise and the way that they are “addressed”* or answered by the person who seems to be organizing this thing will fill you in on several of the things I find suspect about certification programs like this. (Namely that without verified accreditation, any kind of so-called “certification” is worthless.)
*Update 9/20/2012, 14:30pm EST - Sorry. It appears that the entire thread referenced in this post has been deleted.
Note that I have no problem whatsoever with training programs. My issue, which is purely an ethical one, deals with people selling certifications that actually are not. (We’ve been here before.) Especially when the sales pitch includes stuff like this:
Do you think i can find a job after this certification?
Our Social Media certification program was designed by Social Media industry professionals. Combined they have done lot of hiring and one of the important element in any resume is actual social media work experience. That’s the reason we created a project based certification program so right after our program you will have something tangible to show on your resume. After all, in the business world it is WHAT you have done that matters. And no where is this more true than in social media. (Source: http://www.instantetraining.com/certification/smct-mc/)
2. There’s something strange going on with the experts list. When asked who the “top experts” who put this training together were, I was pointed to this list of folks: http://www.instantetraining.com/smct-mc/index.html#experts
Here’s where things get fun. Curious to find some pretty respectable names on the list (not the usual suspects), I reached out to several of them. I quickly heard back from two of them. They both indicated several things:
- Though they had been involved with the organization in the past (free webinars for their book launches, for instance) they were not in any way associated with the certification program.
- Moreover, they had no idea that their names, image and reputations were being used to sell this program.
I’ve only talked to 2 so far, so it isn’t to say that all of the “top experts” listed on that site are unaware that they are being used to sell a program that they did not contribute to… but some of them are, and that’s a little peculiar. I gave the organizers the benefit of the doubt and asked them if they wanted to either comment or amend the list. The answer I received was this:
Bob Tripathi • If they have spoken with us it would be this year and we have them as our on-demand session.
I checked again with those two folks, and that certainly was news to them.
Let’s just leave it at that for now. I don’t want to get between them and this organization. They’re aware of what’s going on now and I will let them handle it how they feel is most appropriate. All I’ve inferred so far is that the list – as it stands as I write this blog post – may not be 100% representative of the “top experts” who are actually involved with this certification program. I will leave you to draw your own conclusions. (Better yet, do your own research.)
3. Then I did a little more digging, and it all went sideways from there.
A quick check of the twitter account for the thread poster’s organization (@SocialMediopols, listed at the top of the thread) raised some puzzling questions – and feel free to try this for yourselves:
a) According to http://fakers.statuspeople.com/Fakers/Scores, @SocialMediopols, which currently counts around 9,500 followers, seems to be composed of 85% fake followers, 1% inactive followers and 14% “real” followers. That’s a pretty high percentage of fake followers by any standard. That would mean that… out of 9,500 followers, only about 1,300 aren’t fake. [Note: I mistakenly put the number of followers at 18,000 earlier. That was incorrect. (It was an August figure.)]
I found that surprising. Maybe it was an error, right? Perhaps the app screwed up. So I decided to get a second opinion…
b) I went to TwitterCounter.com and checked out the account’s follower growth for the last 6 months. Here’s what I found:
The most amazing thing I learned from that quick snapshot is that the @SocialMediopolis account grew by exactly 768 net new followers per day from May 31, 2012 to July 4, 2012.
That’s right. Every single day, the account attracted precisely 768 new followers. No variance at all. No 767 one day and 769 the next. Exactly 768 per day, every day, for 36 consecutive days.
Amazing.
Sadly, as if someone had flipped a switch, the follower count started dropping on July 5th, and has been ever since.
Ruh-roh.
4. Upon which my questions about this get mysteriously deleted from the thread.
I brought this information to the attention of Bob, and asked him several questions. They went essentially along the lines of…
- Will buying fake followers be included in the normal certification training, or will that be covered by the top experts in the on-demand calls?
- Will you also explain how not to lose 100+ followers per day once you stop buying fake followers?
- Since your social media community claims to have 400,000 members, why is it that you only have about 1,300 real twitter followers? Even if all 9,500 were 100% legit, that’s a very low percentage. 40,000 followers would only be 10% of your membership.
Source: Twitter profile for the @SocialMediopolis account – “We’re the largest #private #community of Social Media Marketing (#SMM) #professionals on the planet! Social Media Marketing on #LinkedIn, over 400,000 members!”
I then offered to connect Bob and his organization to actual social media professionals who might be able to give them pointers on how to build a community on Twitter… but that evidently wasn’t received very well. Instead of answering my questions, my comment was quickly deleted from the thread. *Update 9/20/2012, 14:30pm EST - It appears that the entire thread has now been deleted as well.
5. Yes, that’s right: deleting my comment will make the tough questions go away. That’s how social media works.
These are the guys selling social media certifications. Awesome. Sounds super legit to me. Please take my money and send me a certificate of “you’re hired.”
Update 1 (9/19/2012): I have actually been banned from that thread now. I can’t comment there anymore. Classic fail. :D
Update 2 (9/20/2012): It appears that the entire thread referenced in this post has also been deleted by the community manager. Fail x infinity.
Update 3 (9/20/2012): The community manager (I believe this would be Michael Crosson) attempted to repost his sales pitch/post on his community page. Nice attempt at a clean slate. Unfortunately, folks started commenting on it again. Those comments must have been inconvenient, because that post and all of the ensuing discussion and comments have now been deleted too. Link: http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Social-Media-Certification-Your-Ticket-66325.S.165779329?qid=482532ba-6f31-471c-a3b2-f09184d2ad35&trk=group_items_see_more-0-b-ttl
What a fiasco.
Okay. It’s all fun and games, but I want to leave you with some constructive advice, so here it is:
1. Do not delete comments unless they actually violate your TOS or community standards. Do not delete entire comment threads just because the comments being left are inconvenient. Do not attempt to repost the same content in an effort to wipe the slate clean of comments. Do not delete that thread as well when the same criticisms pop up in the comment thread. ugh… This is really basic stuff.
2. If you’re going to fake your reach and influence, at least learn how to do it properly. Adding 768 net new followers every single day for a month is something a robot would do. You have to mix it up. 327 here, 781 there… Make it random. You can’t be lazy when it comes to faking your shit. You have to work at it. That’s how the real pros do it.
3. If you fake this stuff, you will get caught. First, as you can see from the thread, our bullshit meters have gotten very good. Second, the tools to uncover the BS are free and available to everyone. It took less than 5 minutes for me to turn out those two reports and see what was going on there. All you need is an internet connection and an espresso, okay? Don’t play these games anymore. Once your reputation is shot in this space, it’s shot. There are far better ways of making money in social media.
4. This is what happens when you delete someone’s comments and then block them from further commenting. You force them to take the discussion elsewhere… like on their blog, and Facebook and Twitter. Had I not been deleted or blocked for merely asking inconvenient questions, I would have never written this post. It could have all gone away in a couple of days. But no. Instead, I came here and wrote about it. Lesson: don’t delete comments on a thread just because the present an inconvenient opinion. Social Media 101. (I wonder if Bob will include that in his certification program.)
5. Social media certifications will not get you hired by anyone. What looks good on a resumé is experience, not some piece of paper some blogger mailed you after attending a few of his webinars and writing an essay. Do the work. Build your own case studies. Do pro-bono work if you have to (that’s how many great portfolios begin), but don’t waste your time and your money on someone’s lame money-making scheme. Especially when the tactics they employ to appear to be legit are so weak that they can be shredded by anyone with an internet connection in just a couple of minutes.
6. There are solid training programs out there that don’t try to pass themselves off as certification programs. If those are too pricey, most of what you need to learn is already available for free on the web anyway. But the good stuff, the classroom-level stuff put together by real professionals, it’s there if you look for it. Just one word of caution: check the “experts” out. See what they’ve done. See who they’ve worked for. Are they just a “social media personality?” A blogger? A speaker? A network marketer with an incredible ground-level opportunity he would like to share with you and thousands of facebook friends? Red flags, all.
7. Go forth and socialize. Learn by doing and watching others. Save your money for something cool… like renewing a gym membership or going on vacation.
As always, this is all a matter of opinion… except for the parts that are, you know… fact-checked. ;)
Cheers,
O.
* * *
Social Media ROI – Managing and Measuring Social Media Efforts in your Organization was written specifically to teach managers and executives how to build and manage social media friendly business programs and incorporate social technologies and networks into everyday business operations. The book is divided into four parts: social media program strategy & development, social media program operationalization, social media program management, and best practices in measurement and reporting. If your boss doesn’t yet have a copy, time to fix that. If everyone on your team doesn’t yet have their own copy, fix that too. It makes for a great desk reference.
(Now available in several languages including German, Korean, Japanese and Spanish.)
CEO-Read – Amazon.com – www.smroi.net – Barnes & Noble – Que
Dude – you are on fire today. Have enjoyed watching this thing roll from afar. Thanks for keeping us diligent about expertise and knowledge versus handwaving and sparklers.
Thanks, man. I wasn’t even going to write this, but they deleted some of my comments and banned me from the thread so… here we are. From bad to worse.
1. Thank you for the literal staccato burst of laughter upon seeing “unicorn meat” as your graphic.
2. This deconstruction is one of many “don’t bring a knife to a gunfight” moments from you.
One would think people would learn that the internet is always on. Good grief.
Thank you for being.
Their first mistake was to not stick to just training. The second they made this a certification, they invited the scrutiny. Unfortunately for them, they made no effort to cover their tracks. I guess they figured we would all be really, really dumb.
Maybe they should have offered a certificate in “Making a quick buck by selling Social Media certification.” Oh, yeah, but they appear to be failing in that, too.
:D Someone must have sold them on the notion that it was easy and profitable.
Here we go again is right. This is BS capitalism at it’s finest.
But there is obviously a market chocked full of newbies trying to cut to the front of the line hoping this certification is their ticket there.
It will never cease to amaze me how doing due diligence is so often overlooked. Ugh.
It blows my mind that they thought nobody would do a little digging on their organization and their program.
Well done for a fine blog Olivier.
I love the transparency of the web!! :)
To offer social media certification is laughable BEFORE it transpires that the company in question don’t actually know how to do it themselves.
It drives me crazy seeing people offering twitter training and it turns out they have 200 followers. That in itself is enough to know that they are not an expert.
I recently attended a social media training course for property people and the guy running it recommended that we sent 3 tweets a day and used a buffering bot to spread out the tweets. He also tried to demonstrate how to build a targeted following, but could not follow anyone because he had reached 2001 followers and only had 1400 himself. When he could not add any new followers, he announced that all the people that he had tried to follow had elected not to accept new followers! I had to bite my tongue not to say anything.
The thing about social media is that we are all experts as social media is nothing more than chatting, making friends, and sharing information … and we all do that every day of our lives. It;s nothing new.
We don’t wake up in the morning and say “I’m going to say 2,000 words to sell stuff, then 4,000 words to talk to my friends at lunch, etc”. No, we just talk and share.
If you want to learn how to be successful in social media, look to people who have actually achieved a tangible & commercial ROI, if that is why you want to get involved.
My husband and I founded Property Tribes, the busiest landlord and investor community in the U.K, and the fact that we have done this (and with a £zero marketing budget, solely through social interaction) means that many people approach us to help with their social web activities.
Eyeballs are not enough. You need “eyeballs that care”. A social media training course will not teach you that.
I like your suggestions Olivier. It takes time and effort to gain social traction and influence. There are a few short cuts, but it is not one size fits all.
Anyway, thanks for making me smile. I loathe fakery on the social web and its good to see you using tools to illustrate your facts and make your points in a pragmatic and professional manner, which is again how a true maestro would respond.
That is what an expert does. Bravo Olivier!
Well, Olivier certainly knows how to try to spin this the most negative way possible. Would you be interested in hearing the REAL story?
I am the founder and moderator of the Social Media Marketing group on LinkedIn, and the publisher of http://www.SocialMediopolis.com. The main LinkedIn group is over 445,000 members, the 20 subgroups contribute another 22,000+, SociaMediopolis list is over 80,000. Together it is well over 500,000 total members, which IS the largest social media marketing group on the planet.
The discussion that he is referring to started to deteriorate because Olivier made inaccurate and wrong claims. In fact, he confused my group with another company, Instant eLearning. The two companies are NOT related. Now understand, Instant eLearning is a social media training company, and for some reason, Olivier decided to pick a fight with them, becoming very bellicose and rude. Maybe he sees them as a competitor? I honestly don’t know because he certainly crossed the line in terms of being civil.
Once he went over the line with inaccurate accusations, I responded by deleting his membership, because one of the group rules is that you are not allowed to attack other members, which he VERY clearly was doing. And once you delete a member, all of the postings and comments are automatically deleted by LinkedIn. It’s not a matter of “censorship”.
The problem is that Olivier seems to think the group was built specifically just for him. With that many members, I have to find a wide range of resources that appeal to EVERYONE. Almost 40% of the group membership identify themselves as newbies, and Instant eLearning’s program and certification fit that market need very well. Another 30% identify themselves as wanting to learn to make money online, which this program also appeals to.And Instant eLearning also provided a 40% price discount, which I’m sure many members appreciated.
If Olivier had been more respectful and less accusatory, there would have been no issue. But someone’s super-sized ego got in the way.
So, the question is, will Olivier delete THIS rebuttal?
Sincerely,
Mike Crosson
Moderator and Publisher
Thanks for commenting. Um… no, Michael, I won’t delete your comment. This might come as a surprise to you, but that sort of thing is frowned upon in professional social media circles.
And no. I don’t see you of your organization, or your organization’s non-related organizations as competition. You’re joking, right? You and I are not at all in the same business. Let’s be clear about that.
Asking questions isn’t being “bellicose and rude,” by the way. I know it seems like it when you don’t like the questions, but questions are just questions – even when the tone is sarcastic, which you evidently got a pretty big dose of today, not only from me. I saw some comments on that thread that actually WERE rude, but those didn’t get deleted.
Huh. How about that.
So let’s start with this: shame on you for hiding behind the “you were being rude” excuse. You must really take people for idiots if you think anyone can’t see right through that.
What happened is simple: you deleted my comments when I asked about the stats of the Twitter account. That’s all it was. Let’s not paint this as something that it isn’t. And I understand the impulse, because those numbers don’t paint a pretty story.
In regards to the accuracy of my inconvenient comments:
I used the links that you provided on your thread, Michael. Your thread, your links. The twitter account that you posted is @SocialMediopols. I didn’t make that up.
It claims to be a community of 400,000 members but currently only has about 9,000 Twitter followers. (I wrongly put it at 18,000 earlier.)
According to the Faker app, 85% of these followers are fake. I invite you to check that yourself, though I assume that I am not telling you anything you don’t already know.
The Twitter Counter app shows the account’s follower history. I also invite you to go look at it yourself.
I asked on the thread if you (or Bob, since he was answering questions) could speak to those points, because they strike at the heart of your organizations’ and certification program’s legitimacy. Instead if answering me, my comment was immediately deleted.
Then ALL of my comments were deleted.
I would have asked you if that was something that would be taught in this “social media” guru certification, but I didn’t get a chance because I was then blocked from commenting altogether.
Your thread, your rules. Okay. But you should know, before you sell “social media” guru training, that deleting comments you don’t like and are neither rude nor offensive on a thread is just not done. I didn’t call you names. I didn’t use profanity. I asked pertinent questions that you just didn’t like.
That’s 101-level stuff, Michael. Is this what you teach people?
So let’s recap:
1. The program’s “top expert” roster misleading. Some of the names on it have nothing to do with the certification program. I know this because I SPOKE with them. If you would like for me to contact all of them and create a list of every speaker you have tied to this program without their permission or knowledge, I will be glad to. Then we can talk about inaccurate accusations. Okay?
2. The “accreditation through SEMPO” reply Bob gave me doesn’t hold water. According to their own website, “SEMPO is a global non-profit organization serving the search engine marketing industry and marketing professionals engaged in it.” Social Media isn’t SEO, Michael. SEMPO can’t accredit a social media program. My two question regarding this point remain unanswered (and deleted).
3. @SocialMedipols appears to be composed of 85% fake followers.
4. The growth pattern of the account’s followers until July 5th seems to be artificial, which lends credibility to the 85% fake followers figure.
5. The dramatic daily net loss of followers for that account after July 5th seems to indicate that the artificial follower program the account benefited from came to an end. There seems to be zero effort to curate that Twitter community, by the way.
If any of that is inaccurate, I invite you to provide me with verifiable numbers that contradict mine.
Fact is, Michael, my numbers ARE accurate. I asked questions about these numbers on your thread and you booted me. That’s all that happened here.
Let me just tell you something, and this isn’t me being “rude” or “belligerent,” this is me making an honest professional assessment of your behavior: both in regards to the fake Twitter followers and the way you deleted my comments, that you have no place giving anyone the slightest bit of advice when it comes to social media.
It isn’t just that you’re not very good at this. I mean… you aren’t. You obviously don’t know what the hell you’re doing in SM. (Tip: stick to SEO or network marketing, or whatever your background is.) But that’s only half the problem. The other piece of this, and the one that bothers me more, is that I don’t find your behavior the least bit ethical. You don’t buy fake followers, Michael. You don’t delete inconvenient comments. You don’t do that stuff. It’s wrong. It’s bad. The only person here who could actually benefit from attending some social media training is you. If you can find a program on ethics, i would enroll in that too.
One final thing: calling you on your bullshit isn’t rude, Michael. Calling you an asshole and a hack, well, that would be rude.
Good luck with your community.
Update (9/20/2012, 15:40est) Michael, it looks like you ended up deleting the entire thread. Did you decide that EVERYONE was being rude?
Then, strangely, you reposted the same pitch again, minus the comments. But when people returned to question the program and your motives, you deleted the post and the comments again.
Were they all being rude as well? Again?
Between your fake twitter followers, your lack of transparency and your bizarre, unethical behavior in the last 24 hours, good luck convincing anyone that you have the slightest bit of credibility in this space.
Great post Olivier but sadly becoming an everyday topic! You are so correct, “if you do this stuff, you will be found out.” Keep the pressure on and know that their are many who champion your work!
I was glad to see that virtually everyone who commented on that thread spotted the BS right away.
Olivier,
I appreciate you posting this and sticking out for industry as a whole. The issue is i would have hoped you would have investigated or spoke to me (as i did email you my number). The fact is: Instant E-Training is a different company than SocialMediopolis that you have pulled stats from. You keep referring to Bob about follower but that is Michael and not Bob.
Second, All the speakers listed are or were part of our webconference sessions and they do our webconference part of it. Some live and some on-demand so i am not using their name to sell but they have spoken with us before. Please, its ok for you to assume stuff and start a fire but you’re definitely hurting my credibility even without talking to me…so that’s unfair. I know you will not agree but…Think about it.
Finally, certification is a validation for their commitment. The issue is no one employs people without experience and no one would get experience if no one offers them work. We have developed a hands-on project based curriculum where attendees implement stuff for a company that they can show on their resume and profile. I have seen this over and over and that is how we developed this certification. Same with the FAQ that you pulled up before.
Also, i am not the group owner so have nothing to do with your comments.
All in all it does look like the word certification ticked you off but at least try to investigate, talk to us, look at our curriculum before spending your precious time in posting this.
Thanks,
Bob.
Instant E-Training
Bob, yes. The word “certification” is 100% at the heart of the problem. Not just the word. The notion. The concept. The promise of a certification.
You can do training all day long. Knock yourself out. But a certification? With a diploma? No.
As for the mix-up between your organization and Michael’s, I’m sorry that there was confusion there. But look, Michael is your affiliate, right?
Ref: “I have negotiated a super discount for our group members: receive 40% off on certification and 35% off on webconference on their regular rates!”
If he isn’t an affiliate, then that statement is pretty misleading
Fact is that I’ve talked to some of the people on the “expert” list, and they had no idea that they were involved with this program.
So here’s where I am:
1. I can’t tell who’s selling what. Michael is selling your program and providing special discounts. You’re responding to questions on his thread. It seems to me that you’re working together on this. There isn’t a lot of transparency or disclosure there. What is Michael’s relationship to your program? It should be stated somewhere in the copy. If there is a material connection between him and you, or your organizations, (a discount agreement might qualify as a material connection,) you both have to disclose that. By law.
2. I can’t help the fact that the guy who is selling your program has a credibility problem. Fake followers, deleting comments he doesn’t like, etc. Like it or not, it’s rubbing off on you, even if you had nothing to do with it. See item 1 above.
3. Fact: Some of your “experts” were not aware that they were being listed as resources for this program until I shared the link with them. So with all due respect, Bob, don’t tell me that they’re all on board. That’s just not true and you know it.
4. Deleting my comments was a bad move. I don’t know if it was Michael or you, but it was a bad move. I would not have written this post if that had not happened. If Michael was the one with the trigger finger, don’t forget to thank him for that. I would have been perfectly satisfied with continuing this discussion on the thread. I actually liked that you were responding to me. You were doing okay, given the circumstances. (For what it’s worth.)
If you walk away with only one thing though, let it be this:
Training: Yes.
Certification: No.
It’s that simple. And you can see from the thread that it isn’t just my opinion.
Cheers,
O.
Olivier,
I definitely see that you have issues with the word certification. Trust me i used to think like that until early this year. We started our online training company last year and did not offer certifications because of my dislike for word certification. The way i look at it is, in social media or in SEO, it is what you do, the kind of projects you work on, and the results that you produce that really matter than mere certifications.
Also, we developed a solid project based curriculum based on our real life social media experience working at large corporations. Certification is a validation of the commitment & efforts that our students put in during our 6 week program. Trust me we make them go through lot of weekly assignments, quizzes, etc. The other fact is universities who offer social media certifications do not even go into the depths or project based approach like we do and still charge upwards of $3500 per program. Look, real innovation in education comes from private institutes like ours and that is what we have set out to do. What we are doing is providing excellent quality coursework at 1/3rd of the price that those places charge and make it affordable.
The other point is the FAQ you picked up from our site. These are questions that came from our attendees and so we put it in our FAQ section as guess what after project that we make our students go through they have something tangible to show on their resume or profile. The fact is, and i hope you agree, is that no one gives work if you don’t have experience and you don’t get experience if no one employs you. So our program gives students that tangible real world experience that they can show in their resume. It is a project based training approach. What is wrong with that? It is not a marketing ploy as you see it.
The other point you make is about our speakers. You’re mistaken on that as well. All our speakers listed have spoken with us in April and we are making available few of those recorded videos as on-demand videos (while others are live sessions) and they are clearly listed in the workshop agenda. I am not one of those marketers who will use someone’s name without their permission. So you are mistaken on that point too. We also conduct other training programs and see our speaker list there too. We only list names after they have confirmed or if we have their videos available. Check out our other programs and see our list of speakers:
http://www.instantetraining.com/online-marketing-workshop/seo-training
http://www.instantetraining.com/online-marketing-workshop/facebook
Olivier – all in all you have posted this without checking the facts or even bothering to check with us on all facts. For someone in your position, with followers, it is your responsibility to write posts that are factually correct and only after you have the complete story. You did not even bother, it seems to me, to read the announcement that Mike Crosson send as it clearly stated Bob Tripathi’s courses so there was a clear distinction there and his group members get that. In Mike’s defense i know he works with companies like HubSpot, ClickZ and more and he personally vets programs or webinars before he announces them. He send his people to train with us as well and only offers quality programs to his members.
I really think that you posted this in a haste without getting the story right and have hurt my credibility by getting things mixed up. Anyone who has worked with me will tell you that i am a honest, straightforward guy and always straight in my dealings so this is really unfair on me and my company especially when your facts are completely off base here. We cannot blur our judgements if we have a problem with a word like certification.
For someone like you who have written books and maintains a blog you have a responsibility towards your readers of providing accurate information and sadly you have missed that mark by acting impulsively. Before you make judgements on our company it is always wise to know about that company or person.
I request that you please do an update to your post above that you did not investigate well and you had identities mixed or delete this post.
Thanks,
Bob.
Bob, the only thing I got wrong is that your organization isn’t the same as Michael’s organization. That’s it. And that’s something that you need to ask yourself about, because the lines there are so blurred that I STILL don’t know if Michael is your distribution partner in this program, your agent, or just a friend trying to help you out. It appears to be one or both of the former rather than the latter.
Here’s something that you should learn about before you offer “certifications” in social media: 16 C.F.R. Part 255. Look it up. Aside from everything else we’ve discussed, the fact that your material relationship with Michael in that thread isn’t clear is a problem all on its own.
I also want to point out that the discussion occurred on his thread, in which he was selling your program at a 40% discount for his members. As far as that thread goes, your two organizations are not separate. There is a material connection between them. I’ve since noticed that his organization’s logo appears on your program’s website.That was the context of everyone’s questions on that thread.
I could be nice and give you the benefit of the doubt, Bob, but you also aren’t being truthful about the involvement of several of your “experts” in this program. You can come here and accuse me of not having done my research, but that’s not true. I looked at only 3 things: Your experts, the accreditation of your certification program, and some weird numbers relating to Michael’s community and that twitter account.
1. Your experts aren’t all aware that you are using their image and name to sell this certification program.
2. SEMPO cannot give your program the accreditation that you vaguely inferred in one of your answers. It’s a search engine marketing association. It has nothing to do with social media. I also doubt that that they have actively certified your program in any way. (Should I contact them?)
3. Michael’s organization has a twitter account that is composed of 85% fake followers. Since he’s selling your program, that’s kind of relevant, don’t you think?
I brought up these three points in the discussion and asked for clarification, because it ALL goes to the credibility of your program and of your agents. On the first, your answer wasn’t truthful. On the second, it was vague and at best, misleading. On the third, Michael deleted all of my comments from the thread and blocked me from commenting.
You’re right in a way though. My research was limited. There are a hundred things I could also research that I haven’t. I only focused on the first 3 things that came to mind. Those 3 areas turned up some pretty inconvenient questions for you and Michael. I asked about them and you deleted my comments and booted me from the thread.
Not only did you fail to answer my questions in the thread, you or your agent, Michael, then tried to cover up our piece of the discussion by deleting all of my comments and questions.
Have you looked at that thread, Bob? Am I the only person asking questions and sharing with you the opinion that this social media certification looks like a giant pile of bullshit? No. But I’m the only guy who brought up something that Michael didn’t want people to see.
And here’s the most tragic part of this story: Because you guys deleted my comments and blocked me, we didn’t get a chance to get to the bottom of the questions I was asking about YOUR program. You guys effectively cut the lines of communication between us before a) these questions could be properly answered in the thread and b) before you could point me to whatever resources might have cleared things up.
By the way, “Call me so we can talk about it offline” is not an acceptable way to handle basic questions in a discussion thread, Bob. You probably need to add that to the social media training you are offering. It’s really basic stuff. Like deleting comments: Doing that is one of the worse things you can do in a discussion thread. Losing your cool and calling me an asshole wouldn’t have been as bad as deleting my comments. I was never rude. I never used profanity. I didn’t insult any members of your community. I didn’t break any of your community rules. I asked questions and pointed to inconvenient facts.
I’ll end with this:
You open your comment with “I definitely see that you have issues with the word certification. Trust me i used to think like that until early this year.”
Okay, I’ll trust you. So what changed? Did you realize that you could make easy money without actually going through the process of building a real, vetted, accredited program? Look at your thread. Do you still feel like you’ve made ethical choices about all this? We all know where the ethical lines are. We all make the choice to cross them or not to cross them. It’s a choice.
You should have stuck to your instincts, Bob.
Here’s some free advice:
1. Remove the certification from your training.
2. Contact your experts and explain what you’re doing. All of them. Then make sure that they all know and agree to your program’s model and their involvement in it. If some aren’t willing to participate, remove them from your list of experts.
3. Make their involvement clear to your market: Did they help design the training? Are they teaching it? Are they grading papers? Be specific.
4. Make your material relationship with agents and partners clear to your market.
5. Don’t dodge questions in discussion threads.
6. Don’t delete inconvenient comments. Tell your agents not to either.
That’s the road map. It isn’t too late. You can still put all of this behind you.
I’m not sure why these two programs are being associated in a thread in the first place then. As a student, I like to look around at learning opportunities (and reading Olivier’s blog, watching his videos and interacting with him has already got me on a good start). What I can say is that the original post was very hazy.
The fact that Hollis Thomases was one of your experts made me cringe quite a bit. I don’t know how familiar you are with her writing, but this article (http://www.inc.com/welcome.html?destination=http://www.inc.com/hollis-thomases/social-media-dont-put-intern-in-charge.html) was written by her. Olivier posted about this topic before, please feel free to replace “23-year-old” with “black people” or “employees over 45″ (as Olivier mentioned in his post on the topic) and you can see it for what it is… discrimination. In my eyes, after doing even moderate research, I would never want to learn a thing from someone who thinks it’s okay to write that.
But I digress, I have two questions regarding this whole situation that I would like clarified.
1. Why are these two programs being confused in the first place, just about everyone in that thread was confused about what was actually going on and/or calling it bullshit. If it’s your program, answer the questions, if not, don’t! I feel like that was the spark that ignited a good majority of the confusion.
2. If it’s based on project and hands-on learning, why not give the participants copies of their work, offer to be a reference for them in the future, or have the companies write recommendations based on the work? All three of those seem to make more sense than a certificate, to me. They make a great certificate called a college diploma that employers usually take into account, but unless there’s an accredited and recognized body, how can you offer a “certification” of any kind? There is no such organization as far as I know (correct me if I’m wrong). As far as a college diploma, well, the colleges accredit that. I think that’s a good example of what I mean, here.
Overall, I think that the situation was worsened by the confusion of the two programs and that none of the answers really addressed the core questions Olivier originally even asked. You told him to “feel free to reach out” in some of your comments, but didn’t just answer his inquiries in the first place and just gave a generic response to both him and another person after him. He was reaching out to you in that thread and trying to find out what was going on. That’s the nature of LinkedIn discussions.
I’m not trying to sound rude, since that seems to be the common thing to call people, but frankly had you just answered his initial questions (ie. why doesn’t the curriculum include change management, etc), things would have gone much smoother for you.
Great stuff! How many emails and Social media comments do I get every day offering to give… I mean sell me the keys to the kingdom of wealth? Too many! I tend to rely on my own sense of con for sensing out the BS but If I’m tempted to part with my hard earned cash then as you say it’s a five minute job to check people and businesses out.
I didn’t realize there was still so much of this going on.
I’ve always followed Dan Kennedy’s line of thinking when it comes to certification…”think accurately about the ‘certifiers’ and their purpose as well as their qualifications. Whether university or association, it is about money. In many cases, it was dreamt up by an entrepreneur who is hidden behind its curtain, to get money from insecure, weak-minded people desperate for approval and validation, unable to provide that for themselves.” I see a lot of social media workshops right here in Philadelphia, often through associations, being taught by people who don’t know jackshit about social media and have 200 Twitter followers. To those who aren’t engaged in it, it’s a huge mystery and it seems anyone can call themselves a social media expert.
Wisdom.
This is weird because I saw the LinkedIn thread earlier today. I don’t consider myself a newbie, but I am always interested in learning from other professionals. I realize that there are no “accredited” (so to speak) certification programs, and I’m a little sick of trying to sort through all the B.S. to find credible information. Nevertheless, certification has a nice ring to it from a client’s perspective. Does anyone have recommendations for reputable webinars, conferences, etc?
Aside from this blog, here are a few resources for you to check out:
http://www.altimetergroup.com/blog
http://www.britopian.com/tag/social-media/
http://www.human1.com/blog/
http://www.conversationagent.com/
http://vocecommunications.com/blog/
http://darmano.typepad.com/
The really sad part about this is that there’s almost zero chance of them incorporating any of this constructive criticism into their program to build an actual community.
I feel bad for anyone gullible enough to waste money on that thing.
The problem is also that the social media, since it’s still really in its awkward teen years as an integrated marketing tool, is rife with people who claim to have the “magic bullet”. The real truth is that there isn’t one. A perception that I run into over and over with clients is that if I’m present on Facebook, I’ll see instant results, right? That’s how Old Spice did it?
Unfortunately that also perpetuates the idea that just because you know what Pinterest is, that you can be a social media marketer. Thanks again for sharing this!
Wait, so is this to say that the experts you contacted had not planned on participating in the upcoming certification program?
Nope. They recorded some webinars/interviews with the organization months ago (not within the context of a training or certification program) and that content may now be used during the course. Retroactively.
They had no idea that their stuff would become part of a certification program. They did not participate in building or vetting that certification program.
One of them was even surprised to learn that he was still featured on their website. His last contact with them was once, months ago, and the context was an informal webinar set up by his publisher to help push his book.
Well, along with fake Twitter followers and a certification whose usefulness is suspect, that is a real problem! Please don’t ban me for saying so LOL.
Olivier – Once again you have got your facts wrong. It was all recorded in the context of our webconference and the on-demand version is what we are using now. Our certification syllabus is different and students access the on-demand videos as clearly stated on our agenda. Only the sessions marked LIVE will be delivered live. Also, we do not conduct any informal webinars as you have pointed out above. The speaker, not sure who that is, must’ve delivered our webconference session and that is what we are utilizing this time around. Once again please check with us before you make assumptions which sadly you have. Thanks!
That’s not factual, Bob. You and Michael are not dealing with this properly. Clean up your act and try again, the right way.
So happy that you exist, Olivier. It brings balance into the world. Would that more people had the balls to call bullshit when they see it. Cause the social media industry, as you well know, has oodles of bullshit in it crammed among the gems.
It’s the mortar that helped build the social media bullshit mountain.
Oh, by the way, Mr. Crosson deleted the old discussion along with the comments and then REposted it here: http://linkd.in/OItSJ8
Well that was entertaining. Looks like it’s gone again.
It was deleted and NOT reposted. I am not wasting another minute of this fruitless discussion.
… Are you serious?
Oh, Michael.
Wow.
I completely understand the debate over the word certification – fair play. But I did deliver two webinars for Bob Tripathi’s Instant e-Training program and got really terrific feedback from the audience – during the webinar as well as after. I stand by the content I delivered and am dismayed to be lumped in with other self-titled experts who tip the BS meter. I enjoy sharing what I know – admittedly it is but a small slice of the larger social media pie – and if I can’t help you personally, I go out of my way to try and refer you to someone who can.
Sima, I understand. And you know we’re all 100% cool with training. I am sure that whatever content Bob is using that you were responsible for is probably very solid.
It is only when people start selling certifications that we have a problem with it. A certification has to be vetted and accredited. There’s a process there.
What Bob is selling is NOT a certification.
I’m sorry that you and others found themselves tied to this controversy. It doesn’t reflect poorly on you, by the way. No worries there.
I hope that
a) Bob will remove the certification aspect of his training until he can offer an actual certification,
b) learn to be 100% honest with his experts (like you) about how their content, names and image is being used by his organization, and
c) will learn to become truthful about his products with the public at large.
Keep doing what you do. :)
hi Olivier, i liked the FAKE app…till I ran it on THEIR handle… and their follower base is also apparently 85% fake. Which makes me think twice about who is a faker and who isn’t. We are in the process already writing code for something ourselves…so we have our OWN tool with our own algorithm that will see who is real and who is fake (not plugging anything here but just saying what we are going through)
I believe that there are FAKE accounts out there, created mainly by sites such as twipquick.com and the alike where they promise to deliver you an audience…in x amount of time.
The truth is that we – the real peeps that started social media either by creating software or strategies – are today also being followed by the FAKE accounts which are EVER growing because NEWBIES come on board and they want FOLLOWERS because that is what WE tell them…that they need followers and FAST so that they sell their products and content..and etc…and its a numbers game…and so on.
So, while you are 100% right about the account you wrote this blog about, I think that some tools out there like KLOUT, or FAKE app should be more transparent into how they deliver their numbers. Uhmm.. Cocacola has 45% of Fake followers..and so many others.
We all have fake followers :S and I think that that # will always increase. But if you look at the WHO is considered 100% fake…actually posts pretty average everyday content that you and I post.
The fake app opens a whole new perspective about the legitimacy of Twitter…Thoughts?
Send me a link to your app when it’s available. I’d love to test it. :)
Yes, I agree with the transparency piece of the algo. Tools like this should show users how the process works.
More tools like it would be nice so they can be used side by side. If anything, it can allow us to create averages between the results (assuming they aren’t close).
Fake followers are always going to happen. I get followed by bots all the time, so the more followers you have, the more likely it is that you will have 5, 10, maybe even 15% of fake followers. It’s hard to not have some small % of fake followers.
But when you have 50%+, that’s tough to explain. 85%? You’ve either bought them all or someone who hates you bought them to make you look bad. (I’ve seen accounts get attacked that way. You can buy fake followers for someone else, and then accuse them of being fakers. It’s far too easy, IMO.)
In the instance of the account I looked at in this post, you can see the pattern of behavior though. And the fact that those fake accounts are all falling off from July 5th tells me that the account is basically a front. There’s not a whole lot of real engagement or community/follower curation there.
What’s important is having tools that help tell the whole story. Not just % of fake to real followers, but how that ratio came to be. You need history and context to be able to make sense of it all.
Cheers.
Just posted on LinkedIn
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/This-discussion-is-no-longer-66325.S.166368632
Michael.
You have officially wasted everyone’s time with your forum censorship and now ultimate deletion of the entire discussion.
You continue to make matters worse and cause yourself to be looked upon as disingenuous. There were quite a few of us participating in the forum who communicated in a professional manner, shared good insights, and added value to the conversation. Now I am led to believe that the percentage discount that you worked out for the group was fused by some kind of “kick-backs” to you. I can only further ascertain that both you @SocialMedioPols and Bob Tripathi @ Instant eLearning are fraudulent predators. You could have 1st sent each of us a message indicating your actions and apologizing in advance for the discussion removal.
———————————————————–
I’m sure it won’t last long before it is also deleted.
Wow! They deleted the entire thread?
Gabriel – making big statements and calling me Fraudulent on what grounds?? Am i a moderator of that group? No. Am i the owner of that group? No. Do i have rights to delete comments? No. Go and check the group profile and you will see owners and moderators. Get your facts straight before you make sweeping statements.
Bob, you should have a talk with Michael. His organization’s logo is on your program’s website. He is acting as your agent. Everything he does regarding his promotion of your program reflects poorly on you.
Disclosing your material connection with Bob and his organization would help clear a few of these things up, but hiding behind a “Bob is the group moderator, not me” excuse doesn’t really cut it.
Not to answer for Gabriel, but even if we ignore the deletion of comments and threads by Michael and his still nebulous relationship to your program, questions about the ethical basis of your certification and your claims regarding its credentials and validity still haven’t been adequately answered.
Your only argument here so far has been to accuse people of not getting their facts straight, even when they do. Surely, there is more to your response than accusing people of not knowing what they’re talking about.
Reblogged this on The Ratliff Letter and commented:
This is a lesson on how NOT to use social media, and the true value of “certifications”…
Great post Olivier, this has been informative to say the least.
My only question to Bob and Michael would have been simple (the threads were deleted before I could post)…
“If your program, training or certification… whatever, was so good, then why could you NOT stand behind it on the original thread instead of deleting it and re-posting it again?”
Sorry… a natural follow up question would have been…
“Why did you have to delete ANY comments whatsoever? Wouldn’t your program stand on its own merits?”
The final piece of this weird little story comes from Michael Crosson himself:
“It was deleted and NOT reposted. I am not wasting another minute of this fruitless discussion.”
https://thebrandbuilder.wordpress.com/2012/09/19/how-to-suck-in-social-media-101-level-course/#comment-31005
Wow.
Yes, Michael just “throwing his hands up” with unanswered questions still lingering is in fact weird to me as well Olivier.
From my perspective, and “walk with me here” Olivier…
Let’s just hypothetically state that you had in fact failed to check facts, and were some big ass looking to destroy Michael’s program or something (you’re not Olivier, but keep with me)…
There are STILL glaring questions left unanswered, threads deleted, people’s time wasted, certifications that need vetting etc…
So even if you were some ass looking to destroy their program Olivier (you’re not)… they (Bob and Michael) still have a LOT of explaining to do.
Now back to real life…
Your facts, even the ones you restated, check out. Their facts, and their “attitude” present only more confusion.
That lingering doubt will probably erase much chance of real success with their program (training or certification). People aren’t stupid, most WILL fact-check and look into a program before buying… so removing ALL lingering doubts is very important from my perspective.
Yep.
Great job on this. I don’t always agree with you, but here I do.
Its actually kinda sad that there are professionals out there trying to make a buck off this. Pretty soon, we’ll see something like a Six Sigma black belt at the enterprise level for social business consultants.
Keep the posts coming.
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Just wanted to point out to Olivier (reading your book in our class btw, Love it!!!) that the follower count for SocialMediopols has gone down to a “possibly real but probably not” 1467 as of today. Either every follower they had on twitter heard about this crisis or……… they decided to shed some fakes.
I think what’s happening there is they were fake followers to begin with. So they’re probably either a) being cleansed out of the system by Twitter itself, or b) programmed to drop off if you don’t keep paying for the monthly follower service.
Great to hear that you’re reading my book in class. That makes me happy. :)
Just found your blog today and I enjoyed this post so much. I feel the same way about certifications. Sad that they are looking to take advantage of people who don’t know enough about social media to recognize the bs.
:) Well, feel free to look through the archives. There’s more good stuff there.
[…] Olivier’s How to suck at social media: 101 level course […]
Great article. It’s kinda funny how so many people are using social media the wrong way. This was very helpful.
Cheers,
Joe
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